I was testing you...

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jamesbond
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I was testing you...

Post by jamesbond » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:27 pm

Hi,

The post i made for my albinos beta fork was a test.

Yes a test, i was testing you members :)

This fork is NOT albinos, sure, the scan is real but the card is handmade starting with a real beta fork then i use a process to alter colors.

Please look at those scans too (same process) in my yahoo album.

http://fr.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/elfham ... /my_photos

Yes all cards are like that, it's not a color problem of your screen.

All these cards are handmade, like the fork.

Bids on this fork finished very high (more than 1000$).

That we (dragsamou and me) wanted to say is :

Be carefull when you buy misprints, specially when you don't know the seller.

We hope that you will be more carefull in the future.

@++Raphael

PS: If you have any questions, please ask
PS2: I'll not sell the fork for this reason, i'm sure you understand and thank you again for bidding.
Last edited by jamesbond on Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dry cereal
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Post by dry cereal » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:50 pm

anyone else here confused? So it was digitally altered?

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Post by hammr7 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:32 pm

I'm not confused. I don't collect these rarities, and as a regular user of Adobe Photoshop, I'm more than aware of how easy such manipulations are. Of course, making altered artwork look real on a card is an entirely different story.

I don't see anything redeeming in offering obvious frauds. This is especially true on a forum like ours. All of us have had to deal with scams. All of us are aware of the dangers in buying from strangers, including new forum members.

An important aspect of our forum is the ability of members to warn other members of possible fraud, or to vouch for the trustworthiness of other members. When some members start playing games with that trust, they undermine the entire forum.

I don't know Raphael, but I personally don't expect to have any dealings with him after this. And I'm uneasy with the implication that a forum moderator was involved as well. As a practical joke, I find this to be in very poor taste. Somehow, I don't expect that Ralph approved.

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Post by AXIOS » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:52 pm

hammr7 wrote: I don't see anything redeeming in offering obvious frauds. This is especially true on a forum like ours. All of us have had to deal with scams. All of us are aware of the dangers in buying from strangers, including new forum members.

An important aspect of our forum is the ability of members to warn other members of possible fraud, or to vouch for the trustworthiness of other members. When some members start playing games with that trust, they undermine the entire forum.

I don't know Raphael, but I personally don't expect to have any dealings with him after this. And I'm uneasy with the implication that a forum moderator was involved as well. As a practical joke, I find this to be in very poor taste. Somehow, I don't expect that Ralph approved.
sorry bond and dragsamou,
i have to agree with hammr.
I don't think that a moderator should show this kind of behaviour.
That would be the same as that gunslinga would be spamming a MOTL topic....unacceptable!


jamesbond wrote:
That we (dragsamou and me) wanted to say is :

Be carefull when you buy misprints, specially when you don't know the seller.

We hope that you will be more carefull in the future.
Apparantly also when you DO KNOW the seller.
i will be very carefull from now on ........to buy/trade cards with French people >:-(
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so...

Post by jamesbond » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:20 pm

As a regular user of Adobe Photoshop, I'm more than aware of how easy such manipulations are
First, i'm not using any programs (like photoshop) to do this scan, cards looks really like that.
I don't know Raphael, but I personally don't expect to have any dealings with him after this.
I'll answer in 2 parts:
1°) If i really was a scammer, i should have sold the fork for no less than 1500$.
2°) Magic is my passion, and i think i'm one of the best specialist of the world. Why ? Because i'm not simply a player, a trader or a collector. I'm all of them, a high level player, a big trader (i have an official shop), and a serious collector because i'm collecting , like you, magic's rarities (like summer magic, misprints ...).

Now, you can trust me or not, but i think it's better to thrust someone like me, who really know what he say than a person you don't know.

Another thing, look at the filler #002, i'm the first man on earth who had them. Why, am i sure that i am the first? Just because this filler is really easy to make, and i hadn't sell it, i offered it to my friend dragsamou.
Apparantly also when you DO KNOW the seller.
I promises that i'll not do this again, it's a one time post to show you how easy it is to abuse of you.
i will be very carefull from now on ........to buy/trade cards with French people
Why ? I think i'm a very good trader and a know a lot of frenchmen who are too.

Did i ripped off anyone here? No, and i'll never do that. Why? Simply because i'm serious and please note that this post was really serious too.

Now to finish i want to say a french sentence :

"En France on a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées" :-)

"In France we have no oil but we have ideas" :-)

@++Raphaël

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Post by Mr.C » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:18 pm

hammr7 wrote:I'm not confused. I don't collect these rarities, and as a regular user of Adobe Photoshop, I'm more than aware of how easy such manipulations are. Of course, making altered artwork look real on a card is an entirely different story.

I don't see anything redeeming in offering obvious frauds. This is especially true on a forum like ours. All of us have had to deal with scams. All of us are aware of the dangers in buying from strangers, including new forum members.

An important aspect of our forum is the ability of members to warn other members of possible fraud, or to vouch for the trustworthiness of other members. When some members start playing games with that trust, they undermine the entire forum.

I don't know Raphael, but I personally don't expect to have any dealings with him after this. And I'm uneasy with the implication that a forum moderator was involved as well. As a practical joke, I find this to be in very poor taste. Somehow, I don't expect that Ralph approved.
Uh, wait.

He really made the cards at home? Does that mean that, theoratically, this experiment has made my Ice Age lands worthless? I'm confused.

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Post by AXIOS » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:32 pm

Raphael and Alexis made us all confused in teh true meaning of misprints........ :-\
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Re: so...

Post by dry cereal » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:20 am

jamesbond wrote:

"In France we have no oil but we have ideas" :-)
now I'm really confused

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Confused...

Post by nano » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:29 am

Haha. I was completely confused.
The image looks genuine for me.
I cannot distinguish from those images though I bought some albinos from various people.
In the future, I will not buy error cards in this forum excluding the reliable persons.

However, though I have trusted various articles contributed to this forum generally.

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Post by Thrond » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:50 am

Mr.C: yeah, he did these cards at home. If I remember well, I was the former owner of this fork (correct me if I'm wrong, Raph), which was absolutely normal at this time.
I think I know too the way he did that card. ;-)

Now think about it: if Jamesond was able to do such a card, everyone can do it. Just be careful with albino or miscolored cards.

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Post by Thrond » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:52 am

And, errr... by the way, Raphy, are you trying to complete a miscolored T1 deck? =D

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By the way...

Post by nano » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:51 am

Perhaps, I think that it is difficult to distinguish the fake on the "web" images.
Please teach us how to tell the real from the fake on the "actual" images, Raphael.
(If you own the real Albino.)
The one processed later has some unnatural parts thinking about the process of MTG print.
If it is not possible to distinguish at all, it is already a "real".

Anyway, thank you for the advice.

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Post by hammr7 » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:59 am

It appears that Raphael has been experimenting with how to selectively degrade some of the individual colors used to make Magic cards.

If the cards are indeed real, and the colors have actually been changed that much, then it means that some (or all) of the colored inks are susceptible to light, chemicals, or both. I have suspected this, given some of the examples I have seen in the past, and given the general succeptibility of printed items to strong light. If so, it just means that color loss, like crimping and certain filler cards, can be counterfeited.

Thirty years ago, when inorganic chemicals (including lead, chrome, molybdenum, and cadmium compounds) were the most popular pigments, they were extremely resistant to light and chemicals. Exposure to extremely strong chemicals, even pure chlorine gas, would only shift the color (i.e. from sky blue to a teal blue) even as the gas destroyed whatever substrate the pigment was printed on.

Since about 1980, most of the heavy-metal-based inorganic pigments have been banned. Their less toxic replacements aren't always as stable, either to light or to various chemicals. Usually this isn't a problem, so long as you don't keep your cards in the sun or expose them to harsh chemical environments. And this problem isn't unusual, or specific to cards. Note that many highly colored indoor items (rugs, upholstered furniture, etc.) highly recommend that you keep them out of the sun.

Based upon the pictures, it appears that the red pigment can be selectively bleached (likely by strong light, less likely by chemicals or a combination of the two) or otherwised neutralized. It appears that the cyan (yellow) layer can be eliminated/neutralized in a similar manner. This leaves only the blue and black layers.

Carbon Black is almost universally used for black, and pretty muchs lasts forever (think soot and charcoal). Most blues are some variant of phthalocyanine, which has very good light resistance qualities. Most reds and yellows are "azo" compunds, which are less resistant to light. If light isn't the culprit, then some chemical, or combination of light and chemical, is selective to reds and yellows.

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Post by nano » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:40 am

hammr7 wrote:Based upon the pictures, it appears that the red pigment can be selectively bleached (likely by strong light, less likely by chemicals or a combination of the two) or otherwised neutralized. It appears that the cyan (yellow) layer can be eliminated/neutralized in a similar manner. This leaves only the blue and black layers.

Carbon Black is almost universally used for black, and pretty muchs lasts forever (think soot and charcoal). Most blues are some variant of phthalocyanine, which has very good light resistance qualities. Most reds and yellows are "azo" compunds, which are less resistant to light. If light isn't the culprit, then some chemical, or combination of light and chemical, is selective to reds and yellows.
Thank you for detailed explanation, hammr7.
The colour of the black and blue certainly remains on all Raphael's cards.
The fork is almost Albino because blue is hardly used for it.
But remains slightly on the picture.
I will especially doubt such a card for the future.
Last edited by nano on Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by dragsamou » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:29 am

hammr7 wrote:I'm not confused. I don't collect these rarities, and as a regular user of Adobe Photoshop, I'm more than aware of how easy such manipulations are. Of course, making altered artwork look real on a card is an entirely different story.

I don't see anything redeeming in offering obvious frauds. This is especially true on a forum like ours. All of us have had to deal with scams. All of us are aware of the dangers in buying from strangers, including new forum members.

An important aspect of our forum is the ability of members to warn other members of possible fraud, or to vouch for the trustworthiness of other members. When some members start playing games with that trust, they undermine the entire forum.

I don't know Raphael, but I personally don't expect to have any dealings with him after this. And I'm uneasy with the implication that a forum moderator was involved as well. As a practical joke, I find this to be in very poor taste. Somehow, I don't expect that Ralph approved.
Hi Hank.
My Implication is very low,I just knew from the beginning that the card was Altered as well as few others Members on the Website ;-)
Also,on an old Post,it clearly stipulate the Story of the Fork.
http://www.magiclibrary.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=327
Now,I didn't interfere at all,doesn't change the fact,that a bunch of Members was offering amazing amount to Raphael,without asking that much question about that card :-O
I totally agree that trust between Members on this Forum was making eventual buyers more confident.I believe the point is much more about a particular kind of Misprints(Albinos,Miscolored) that some Members are buying a Fortune on Ebay,and that are simply the same as Raphy was offered....Faded Cards.
One last thing Hank,I'll gladly quit as Cleaner(Moderator ;-) )as I prefer to have a Total Freedom,glad I was not Moderator when I show the Fake World Champion Card and Shichifukujin Dragon,Fake Foil Filler,etc.....
To finish,Raphy has All my Trust and to my Opinion,that Experiment was a Great lesson.
I certainly don't want that you or others members feel uneasy with my Huge implication,so Ralph,Please find another Moderator.Thanks.
i will be very carefull from now on ........to buy/trade cards with French people >:-(
That was the Best conclusion :-||
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