Beta Serra proof

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magicmisprints
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Post by magicmisprints » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:53 pm

What you are saying would suggest more than 50 sheet sets exist, which may be true, but it's also true that, in a sense, the Serra value is a separate question, since Shuler quite specifically won't sign the Serras (or, really, any of the Shuler art proofs) from those sheets.

Because of his peculiar situation, he functions as the authenticator of the actual "artist proofs" - as in, those given to the "artists," that bear his (misspelled) name, no matter how many unauthorized, basically gray-market cut sheets are made.

50 would be a nice, round, small number, but I'm guessing if you've heard of so many, the true number is probably much higher. Does anyone know *with certainty* how many were printed and/or how they were distributed? Are we talking hundreds here?
Magic61983 wrote:
magicmisprints wrote:Yes, I've heard. This is part of the reason I'd like to know how many of those sets there are. That number will obviously influence both the price of an uncut sheet set and the number of single (mostly unsigned - it's got to be awkward to ask an artist to sign an AP he didn't sell you, even when it's not a Serra) cards that might one day hit the market. Unlike pickle, who mentions it prominently when he talks about them, most people (such as some of those to whom he will sell his, human nature suggests) who sell/resell these will probably not mention/even know that they're from consumer-cut sheets.
pp wrote:btw. pickle.69 has 2 complete artist proof set r/u/c, one of them is uncut

the price of that could be used as a upper limit for the whole set of singles
I would venture to guess there are 50 AP sets going around. I have one sitting in my basement atm. I know pickle has technically 2 and most of the hardcore collectors that collect have one of these or know someone that has them. The AP sheets really aren't rare which is part of the reason for my pricing on the card.
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Post by caquaa » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:13 pm

magicmisprints wrote:Because of his peculiar situation, he functions as the authenticator of the actual "artist proofs" - as in, those given to the "artists," that bear his (misspelled) name, no matter how many unauthorized, basically gray-market cut sheets are made.
I' wager if you had a cut version, knew it was a cut version, and explained it was a cut version, you might have a chance at getting it signed. You kind of go back to dubious origin at that point and cards not factory cut just feel dirty, but its possible an artist might not feel that same way if hes a bit more removed from the game then a player/collector.

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Post by magicmisprints » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:30 pm

You might be right about that. Certainly, a cut sheet Serra wouldn't be one of the ones he feels was stolen from him.. but then, neither would it be one of the 50 he was supposed to get. People cutting sheets would for him diminish the worth/steal sales of any remaining Beta proofs he still had left to sell. But then, given what he's into now, he might not care as much anymore about that. Tough call.. might have to ask him that one directly.

However, if it were a bad enough cut that he believed that it was cut (not a stolen one) when you told him, prospective buyers would probably also be able to tell there was something wrong with the card, which would make it distinguishable from a factory cut one anyway, signed or not. How many of us buy (and don't return if it's an option once they arrive) high value cards that don't seem misprinted, but don't seem right?
caquaa wrote:
magicmisprints wrote:Because of his peculiar situation, he functions as the authenticator of the actual "artist proofs" - as in, those given to the "artists," that bear his (misspelled) name, no matter how many unauthorized, basically gray-market cut sheets are made.
I' wager if you had a cut version, knew it was a cut version, and explained it was a cut version, you might have a chance at getting it signed. You kind of go back to dubious origin at that point and cards not factory cut just feel dirty, but its possible an artist might not feel that same way if hes a bit more removed from the game then a player/collector.
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berkumps
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Post by berkumps » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:33 pm

What he should do, or should have done, is sign legit proofs directly from him on the front, and ones he didn't sell on the back (or use some method to distinguish between his and others, like sign in different places, or sign vertically instead of horizontally).

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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:07 pm

I think I better step in and reinterate some information I have shared before but seems to have gotten lost or ignored.

Early on, had I known it would be important I would have noted the date, but I didn't and I didn't, when WotC was criticized rather strongly about the "dark" and "risque" art they were using they sent out several sets of cards to people they felt could make constructive comments about the impression certain cards made and who's opinion they valued or were, at least, willing to consider.

Those sets were made from the Beta/international/AP sheets with blank backs. In no way distinguishable from APs. Were such sets used only for this purpose? I doubt it.

How many of these sets were made/distributed I have no information on. The cards in these sets, though, would have in no way impacted how many APs were available to any given artist.

Were/are artists aware of these sets? I doubt it.

Therefore, because the number of sets is unknown and because the cards look exactly like the APs, there is no way to set an exact number on the "beta" APs available in the world.

The fact that Douglas Shuler recieved X APs is a fact (I personally believe him). If he refuses to sign "APs" he did not receive, I don't blame him for a moment. If he chooses to sign an AP he did not receive for whatever reason that is his decision to make, not mine or anyone elses.

Thus, I disagree with you, my friend. There is nothing he "should" have done except to do what he felt right about.

My 2 cents.

Gary
berkumps wrote: What he should do, or should have done, is sign legit proofs directly from him on the front, and ones he didn't sell on the back (or use some method to distinguish between his and others, like sign in different places, or sign vertically instead of horizontally).
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Post by berkumps » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:52 am

I guess I should clarify the intent of my statement. I agree wholeheartedly that if he wants to refuse to sign an AP that wasn't his, he has that right. I'm not saying he should be forced to. What I meant to say was, assuming he's ok with signing an AP that somebody brings to him, it would be neat from a collectability standpoint if he were to sign those ones differently than ones directly from him.
mystical_tutor wrote:The fact that Douglas Shuler recieved X APs is a fact (I personally believe him). If he refuses to sign "APs" he did not receive, I don't blame him for a moment. If he chooses to sign an AP he did not receive for whatever reason that is his decision to make, not mine or anyone elses.

Thus, I disagree with you, my friend. There is nothing he "should" have done except to do what he felt right about.

My 2 cents.

Gary
berkumps wrote: What he should do, or should have done, is sign legit proofs directly from him on the front, and ones he didn't sell on the back (or use some method to distinguish between his and others, like sign in different places, or sign vertically instead of horizontally).

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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:29 am

Actually that is a good idea and something you might suggest to him. It would help us as collectors. In that vain, I wonder if he numbered his APs like some artists did, you know the 13/50 or whatever.

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Post by gzeiger » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:02 am

I can tell you how some artists numbered their proofs... I personally have two Mana Drain #1s, and there is at least one more out there.

I only have an artist sign their proofs in person. Those I have had to acquire by mail I request unsigned whenever still available. There are others with similar eccentricities I'm sure.

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Post by dragsamou » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:03 am

Magic61983 wrote: I would venture to guess there are 50 AP sets going around. I have one sitting in my basement atm. I know pickle has technically 2 and most of the hardcore collectors that collect have one of these or know someone that has them. The AP sheets really aren't rare which is part of the reason for my pricing on the card.
Hi
I think, that 10/15 AP sets, is more appropriate, than 50. On this forum, I do know only 5 Members owning one. Some Artists, didn't get them, Ron Spencer was so happy, that I offer him , the Terror AP, some others Artists, didn't want to sell any, or didn't want to sell anymore, some people own multiple AP of the same card, therefore, blocking others to get a complete set, etc....I personally consider a Complete Beta/Collector AP Set, one of the rarest thing, to own in MTG. IMHO
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Post by caquaa » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:03 pm

gzeiger wrote:I can tell you how some artists numbered their proofs... I personally have two Mana Drain #1s, and there is at least one more out there.
was there a reason behind this? bad numbering? done by third party once it got sold?

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Post by dragsamou » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:26 pm

caquaa wrote:
gzeiger wrote:I can tell you how some artists numbered their proofs... I personally have two Mana Drain #1s, and there is at least one more out there.
was there a reason behind this? bad numbering? done by third party once it got sold?
I think, I do own a Mana Drain #1 also, I did get it straight from Mark Tedin, and simply as that Mark didn't remember any numbering of his AP, as he didn't put them on the 50 in a row (Or whatever is the quantity of AP, he received for the different cards), but will number it, while, he sells one of them. And I do know others Artists, who didn't mind, putting the number that I was requesting, don't think, I have asked for Number 1...13 is my favourite number.
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Post by gzeiger » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:59 am

He showed up to GP Seattle years ago with a 200 count box of Timetwister, Sol Ring, Mana Drain and maybe one other proof. He said the box had been misplaced for some years and had not been offered for sale before, which I believe based on the number available, prices, and the rate at which they were selling. He started numbering them by hand as they were sold, and then came to a section which was already numbered, presumably years ago.

I couldn't tell you how a third copy of #1 came to exist, but perhaps he was contacted for it by mail or email, located the box, and couldn't remember selling them before so he numbered the random one he pulled out #1.

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Post by johnstown713 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:58 am

Just to give you an idea, a Shivan ended last month at 300. The Walk that sold for 2k was bought by a non paying bidder and just relisted.
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Post by skirk1983 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:22 pm

I sold my signed beta artist proof set 2 years ago, including a signed Serra Angel.

What is the story about Shuler and the 15 beta proofs sets? Did he only received 15 sets from wotc?

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Post by johnstown713 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:48 am

So I have this that I now am looking to part with as I have started selling everything. Price Ideas?

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