Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?

[mystical_tutor]

In fact, the reality is that the main stuff has already been reprinted:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/vintage-masters-spoiler/

If one is really interested in just playing with the cards and not making a fashion statement..

Gary

[Alphafoil]

In fact, the reality is that the main stuff has already been reprinted:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/vintage-masters-spoiler/

If one is really interested in just playing with the cards and not making a fashion statement..

Gary

Reprinted but in Magic Online, which isn't a substitute for many people that like to play IRL, specially if they play with pimp decks.

I'm quite happy about Vintage Masters, because it'll be quite fun to draft and mainly because I'll finally be able to play Vintage again. But it won't be comparable with playing IRL...

I also think demand for physical Vintage cards will increase as more people discover online how amazing Vintage is.

[mystical_tutor]

In fact, the reality is that the main stuff has already been reprinted:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/vintage-masters-spoiler/

If one is really interested in just playing with the cards and not making a fashion statement..

Gary

Reprinted but in Magic Online, which isn't a substitute for many people that like to play IRL, specially if they play with pimp decks.

I'm quite happy about Vintage Masters, because it'll be quite fun to draft and mainly because I'll finally be able to play Vintage again. But it won't be comparable with playing IRL...

I also think demand for physical Vintage cards will increase as more people discover online how amazing Vintage is.

I would like to see that happen but my perception is that there are not a lot of players that play both--I could really be in the dark on that though as it has been so long since I played MOL. The interest may rekindle but the availability/cost will still be a dampner.

At $7.00 a booster it will take a real dedicated or very curious player to get into it though.

Gary

[NeRo]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/vintage-masters-spoiler/

The comment section is horrid. This is why we cant have nice things.

[ouallada]

What do you mean with "unhealthy"?

That depends on how you define the value statement of the game. I would define that as a mass product engineered to provide entertainment to people who are interested in a strategic game that circumvented the pitfalls of sunk costs. To the extent that developments detract from that, I would label them "unhealthy". Where does that number lie? I'm not saying $2000 manabases are the knife-edge between what is acceptable and what is not, but that it is within the range I would consider as unhealthy. Could legacy survive with an infinitesimally smaller player base? Of course, it just wouldn't be healthy by the above definition -- would you disagree?

The buy-in for Legacy could be $500 000 right now without a change in supply nor the amount of players. That would happen if thousands of multimillionaires for some reason started playing that Magic format. Obviously it would no longer be played in random stores, but in places with lots of security, maybe in private clubs. It would be something similar to very high stakes poker.

With one huge difference. If poker could only be played with gold plated and diamond-encrusted cards, it would as you said, be limited to a minute strata. That doesn't happen for poker because cheaper alternatives (normal decks of cards) exist, and higher buy-ins can be substituted perfectly for lower buy-ins, with the end result still being that poker is available to the masses. Let's not confuse the accessibility of the game of poker with the accessibility or lack thereof related to high stakes.

The original question, though, was whether or not if every single card today were outmoded, and the buy-in were $500000, would it be healthy to you? If the answer is yes, there is a clear difference in opinion, and the discussion need not go further. If it is no, then things get interesting.

The buy-in could also reach that price in the very very long term, as supply keeps decreasing because of lost and destroyed cards. How much would be the buy-in for a format where only Summer Magic cards are allowed?

As with gold plated poker cards, one doesn't need to play with summer cards as perfect substitutes as far as play is concerned exist.

I'll try to answer this on your grounds, though. We can't use the future value of cards to argue a present-day scenario, as steepening discount curves can actually mean that the present value of whatever value we attribute here is lower that its empirical value today. The same way money loses value over time with rising interest rates and inflation. That they can reach whatever amount we decide on, isn't a reason that it should. That is the crux here.

What I mean is that as long as people are willing to pay money for cardboard, no price is too high nor too low. It's as "absurd" to pay $50 for a Black Lotus in 1994, like mystical_tutor said, as paying $50 000 in 2030. It's still a piece of cardboard, with subjective value.

That is a fair point, although I'd respectfully disagree on subjectivity. Let's take yachts. If yachts were marketed as a mass product, would exorbitant prices allow it to achieve that goal? Probably not. If yachts were subjectively expensive to the masses and subjectively affordable to the select, that would be a correct, albeit meaningless statement to make. An objective statement can be made here, though, because when prices go up, what is absolutely objective is that accessibility falls, which falls back to what we would consider as unhealthy.

If Legacy prices keep increasing, we'll just see a change in the type of people that play it, which I don't think is something intrinsically good or bad.

Agreed, it doesn't. Until the scenario above happens and a person gets priced out of it too. Then, chances are, it matters.

Players that want more people playing the format should care about the format being promoted and the supply of cards increased. Prices are another matter. The player base can increase while prices increase (as has happened).

That is the whole point of this debate. Supply cannot change for duals with the reserved list in place. One cannot have his cake and eat it when it comes to this topic. It is either we have spiralling prices and a dwindling level of accessibility or a rising level of accessibility but stabilised prices. There are many ways to skin the rat when it comes to prices, and the reserved list is foremost amongst them. That is why it is such an important topic.

To qualify what is being said, no one wants to see chronicles happen again. Reprints don't mean the exaggerated extreme of that choice much like being politically inclined doesn't make one potentially Stalin. FTV reprints are a possibility. White border reprints are another. It's incorrect to tar every single possibility of supply increase with the same brush, unless the issue of price increases still leads to a situation of format health, in which case that is a totally different debate.