Analyzing the two M10 commons sheets

Everything else informative about Magic items and events.

Moderators: cataclysm80, hammr7, l0qii, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp

anselan
Librarities Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:45 pm

Analyzing the two M10 commons sheets

Post by anselan » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:09 am

Hi,

Quiz: which is the least common M10 common?

Brian Kowal has completed the jigsaw to compute the M10 Commons print run. It is published at Bill Stark's excellent site http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?p=1042. Brian's lists have not been independently confirmed, but look plausible (although I think that one Stampeding Rhino must be missing from Good Run B).

He identifies 4 runs:
  • Good Run A: length 66: 2 copies of each of 33 different cards
    Good Run B: length 66: 3x22 cards (adding one more Rhino)
    Bad Run A: length 55: 2x27 cards + 1xTerramorphic Expanse
    Bad Run B: length 55: 3x18 cards + 1xTerramorphic Expanse
giving us 33+22+27+18+1 = 101 different common cards.

Brian wrote in the Starkington Post:
Each pack has 9 or 10 commons. The first 5 or 6 are from one of the first two runs. The last 4-5 are from one of the second two runs. Most of the good cards are in the first 5 or 6 cards, so I named the first run the “Good Run” and the second run the “Bad Run.” The runs are all loops, so the last card in the run is listed as the same as the first one.

There is something else going on with the runs too: in Run A each card shows up twice while in Run B each card shows up three times.
The purpose of this posting is to speculatively explain some of Brian's observations, and come up with some nice algebra.

Initially, I had thought that the 101 commons might be combined with the 20 basic lands on a single sheet. of 11x11=121 cards. However, this hypothesis is very unsatisfactory for at least three reasons:
  • (1) Commons runs are too obvious - each card will always have the same neighbours.
    (2) Commons and basic lands are not needed in this specific frequency.
    (3) It would be inconvenient to separate the commons from the lands, because 20 is not a multiple of 11, so can't just "split by column".
Therefore, there must be at least 2 commons sheets. It would be possible to have 3, but as you will see, there is so much flexibility possible with 2 sheets that there is no need to have the additional complexity and expense of a third.

Let's say that WotC are aiming to print all the common cards with approximately the same frequency, which seems a desirable goal, particularly for a basic set.

Sheet A could contain:
  • Good Run A: length 66: 2x33 cards
    Bad Run A: length 55: 2x27 cards + 1xTerramorphic Expanse
while Sheet B could contain:
  • Good Run B: length 66: 3x22 cards
    Bad Run B: length 55: 3x18 cards + 1xTerramorphic Expanse
Then to even things up, Sheet A must be printed 50% more times than Sheet B. So 60% of the time, a booster will contain Good Run A, and 40% Good Run B. Similarly for the Bad Run.

Suppose we have 5 common sheets: 3xA and 2xB. That makes 5x121 = 605 cards. But 6 common sets would be 6x101 = 606. What's happened to the missing card? Terramorphic Expanse is the only card to appear on both sheets and it appears just 1x3+1x2=5 times in total, while all the other cards appear 2x3 or 3x2 = 6 times.

Note that this card is the only non-coloured card in the commons, so missing one does not upset the colour balance. (Again, this consideration is probably viewed as more important in a Core Set than in an expansion.)

It isn't enough to ensure that each common card is printed approximately the same number of times. It's also important that each run must be inserted into boosters in the same proportion. Otherwise after a million boosters are packaged, there might be a thousand cards left in one feed queue. I.e. the good cards and bad cards must be allocated in the ratio 6:5. But we don't have 11 common cards in a booster - we have 9 or 10. What to do?

Wizards' solution is ingenious. They define three possibilities:
  • (1) The pack has a foil. Then the non-foil commons must be 5 Good and 4 Bad. Say this happens with probability f.
    (2) The pack has no foil. Then the commons can be 5 Good and 5 Bad. Say this happens with probability (1-f)p.
    (3) The pack has no foil. Then the commons can be 6 Good and 4 Bad. Say this happens with probability (1-f)(1-p).
In order that the Good cards and Bad cards appear with equal frequency, it's easy to see that:
  • p = 5/11 + 1/[11(1-f)].
So for example, if WotC decided that foils would not exist in M10, then f would be 0, and p would be 6/11.

But as it is, we are told on each booster that approximately 1/67 cards is premium. A booster contains 16 cards (according to the text on the wrapper), although one is just a tip or token and can't be foil. So f = approximately 16/67, then:
  • p = 5/11 + 67/(11(67-16)) = 322/561 = approx 0.574.
So what looks like strange inconsistent behaviour in the booster distribution for commons is actually necessary for even distribution of the cards. It would be interesting if someone can confirm the values of f & p experimentally.

I don't know why WotC have chosen the value of f that they did, though.

Brian made two other interesting comments:
Sometimes a common will hop one spot or something weird (this seemed to happen most with Griffin Sentinel).

I've noticed this before with other sets. E.g. in Champions of Kamigawa, I saw transpositions where the 11 cards from one strip of a sheet met the 11 cards from an adjacent strip. Occasionally the first card of a strip seemed to overtake the last card from the preceding strip. Here though the overtaking seems to be associated with a single card Griffin Sentinel, but I wonder if this is just because the sample size for this feature is small.
Interestingly, one of the Good runs seems to be much better than the other. Almost all of the removal is in Good Run B. That doesn’t make me feel so good about this Sealed format.
There are two levels of split going on. First the split between Good and Bad ensures some level of balance between boosters. Then printing a Good card with 3 different sets of neghbours makes it harder for drafters to spot that it has been taken. Particularly in a set where players are only able to play two colours, the unbalancing impact on sealed of giving a player additional removal across other colours is reduced. I am not claiming this is perfect, but I think I can see what WotC are trying to do here.

Anyway, I'd better wrap up. I enjoy this kind of analysis, and if anyone has similar ideas about other sets, or indeed other rarities with M10, please post here.

Thanks,
Andy.

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: Analyzing the two M10 commons sheets

Post by mystical_tutor » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:43 pm

anselan wrote:Quiz: which is the least common M10 common?
Well, I tried, but I couldn't find the answer to your opening question in your dialogue. Is if carefully hidden or do we get it in the next edition? ](*,)

Gary
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

anselan
Librarities Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:45 pm

Re: Analyzing the two M10 commons sheets

Post by anselan » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:24 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:
anselan wrote:Quiz: which is the least common M10 common?
Well, I tried, but I couldn't find the answer to your opening question in your dialogue. Is if carefully hidden or do we get it in the next edition? ](*,)

Gary
Sorry, I thought I made it clear. Terramorphic Expanse is the "rarest common" in M10. There are only 5 of these for every 6 of each of the others.

shaselai1
Librarities Hero
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:55 pm

Post by shaselai1 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:52 pm

great info! I know the people who draft at the store are CRAZY about others memorizing the runs that they all shuffle the cards everytime they get them(although you'd think after couple of shuffles from people before them they can just leave it as it is?). I guess some people could take advantage of it but i think it is really a very small advantage.

On a side note, is there some calculation for the rare runs?

anselan
Librarities Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:45 pm

shocked that rare patterns still exist in M2010

Post by anselan » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:51 am

great info! I know the people who draft at the store are CRAZY about others memorizing the runs that they all shuffle the cards everytime they get them(although you'd think after couple of shuffles from people before them they can just leave it as it is?). I guess some people could take advantage of it but i think it is really a very small advantage.
Well I think Brian Kowal's article gives the info about this - all I am doing is explaining the arithmetic.

Different groups have different cultures. You are lucky. Where I draft FNM, many of the other players are all too happy to share information & opinions with their neighbours in the middle of a draft. It makes me unhappy. I am sometimes dismissed as a spoilsport because it's "only FNM". Right now though everyone is practicing for UK Nationals/GP Brighton, so these characters are behaving themselves because they want to draft "under exam conditions". But it will be back to business as usual by the middle of August.

I think knowing the common runs can give an edge, but it requires skill and dedication.
On a side note, is there some calculation for the rare runs?
For the rares, any run would obviously be inter-booster not intra-booster. Ethically, this is a very different matter.

I hunted around youtube to get an answer, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPlv2ef ... re=related). Quite shocking. Read also the text to the right. The video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok9GcQmPBEU is also educational, and slightly reassuring.

I am stunned that WotC have not fixed the problem once and for all, since they must be aware of it. I am glad that this technique is not working 100% for M2010, but it's still alarming, particularly for people in USA.

It certains means that I would not buy loose boosters. But what about drafting in stores? Should it be standard policy that booster boxes be opened at the table?

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by mystical_tutor » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:29 pm

Crap. I really wish you hadn't put that link in here. I hate this whole rip-off. It is as bad as early dealers scanning all the boosters.....sigh
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

NeRo
Librarities Legend
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:31 pm

Post by NeRo » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:50 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:Crap. I really wish you hadn't put that link in here. I hate this whole rip-off. It is as bad as early dealers scanning all the boosters.....sigh
well ... that is really comparable because the result is the same - people getting scamed ...
even in germany different people are using the book ...

like anselan i am really stunned that this problem has not been solved. imo the first book i heard of was for future sight ...
this must be fixed fast by some kind of random sorting at any point.

regards

anselan
Librarities Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:45 pm

let's go viral

Post by anselan » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:00 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:Crap. I really wish you hadn't put that link in here. I hate this whole rip-off. It is as bad as early dealers scanning all the boosters.....sigh
Yes this is exactly as bad as the ol' translucent booster wrapper game, back in the day, except it's more secretive.

I hate this rip-off too, and there's no way I will pay money to Mr Edwards. However, I think it is better for *everyone* to know that this problem exists. WotC haven't fixed it (and they've certainly had a good chance) and I could be a bit cynical about the reasons why. If there's any senior WotC person at GP Brighton or GB Nats, I will certainly ask them WTF.

Of course, posting this may result in someone else sending money to Mr Edwards. I don't have a problem with that per se. I think that most of the guys who could *profit* from this (i.e. dealers who can funnel boosters into drafts) are probably already in the know, and have decided either to do it, or not to do it.

The problem is this should not be an ethical decision which dealers have to make.

I would like this news to go viral. It will eventually, and sooner it does the better, afaics. The rip-off can only work as long as there are poor Magic players who don't know about the trick.

Gary: if you have trenchant arguments why it's not right to publicize these links, then please tell me, and I will try to pull/edit the earlier post. But I think it's best to spread the word as widely as possible (which is what Mr Edwards expressly asks people not to - so much for the "level playing field" concern).

Also, whatever one may feel about the ethics, Mr Edwards has clearly applied a lot of scholarship to this matter, and this site should certainly have visibility to the fact that his ideas exist.

Cheers,
Andy.

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: let's go viral

Post by mystical_tutor » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:35 pm

anselan wrote:Gary: if you have trenchant arguments why it's not right to publicize these links, then please tell me, and I will try to pull/edit the earlier post. But I think it's best to spread the word as widely as possible (which is what Mr Edwards expressly asks people not to - so much for the "level playing field" concern).
Andy, I'm just reacting with my frustration. I didn't realize this ugly issue had reared it head again and was really upset by the vidio.

I will do what I can to move WotC on this issue but it will really take a strong outcry from a significant number of people to get anyone to take notice (or at least some very squeaky hinges).

Please--all that read this, get on the WotC web site and tell them how you feel about the issue.

REMEMBER!! Any sealed deck event or booster draft you are in sponsored by an unethical dealer--specially one that also runs a singles business, on or off "you know where" will probably result in you not getting ANY expensive rare cards.

And do I need to say anything about the on line sellers of packaged product?

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN EFFECT CHANGE......

Gary

User avatar
yawg07
Legendary Chairman of Altered Art
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:20 am

Post by yawg07 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:44 pm

A friend and I have the book, we just wanted to see it work in person.
And it does, we opened a box of Shards, pulled the good stuff ... then opened the rest of the packs anyhow just because it is fun haha

You can't make a machine that sorts something completely random.
It isn't possible, it won't ever be truly random.

You also have to think if Wizards really wants to spend the money on a project like this when probably under 1-2% of their market knows of this.
Even when they do this, Wizards is still getting the money for selling the boxes to them. I'm going to bet they don't give a shit one way or the other.

anselan
Librarities Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:45 pm

Post by anselan » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:53 pm

yawg07 wrote:You can't make a machine that sorts something completely random. It isn't possible, it won't ever be truly random.
I agree, but it seems possible to make things much harder for those who are reading the box. Listening to the two videos, it seems that Shards of Alara was apparently easy to crack, while Conflux & Reborn were not in the end crackable. With M10, the Type A packs are easily readable, but the Type B ones are not. So a higher level of protection than the USA Type A packs *is* possible.
yawg07 wrote:You also have to think if Wizards really wants to spend the money on a project like this when probably under 1-2% of their market knows of this. Even when they do this, Wizards is still getting the money for selling the boxes to them. I'm going to bet they don't give a shit one way or the other.
I think that in the end credibility of the brand is priceless to WotC, and they will see that this turn of events is dangerous to them. E.g. even at major Limited events, who sees the boxes opened? There might even be legal problems for WotC in this.

User avatar
l0qii
Legendary Unfindable Title Moderator
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:56 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Post by l0qii » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:08 am

The easiest way to remedy this problem would be to shuffle the packs before packing them in the boxes, but doing so leads to an even bigger problem of uneven distribution. People can get very upset about uneven distribution, especially people trying to put together sets. If you want to maintain even card distribution across boxes, this problem will continue to exist. It's a lose/lose situation for WotC.

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by mystical_tutor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:46 am

yawg07 wrote:You can't make a machine that sorts something completely random.
It isn't possible, it won't ever be truly random.
"Truly random" is not necessary, I don't think. Unpredictable would work just fine.

I don't think I am suposed to discribe the complet process but when I visited CM (and I have NO idea if the US set up is anything at all like it) it would have been tremendously easy to mechanically remove a booster pack from the assembly line every x+ or -y boosters. That would be just enough to screw up the predictibility enough that dealers would not want to risk opening 5 packs to get the one they wanted to start the sequence. It would not throw off "completness" for sets enough that the average person would ever notice.

Bottom line--I think it could be done and done in a cost effective way.
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by mystical_tutor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:09 am

There is a WotC thread on this at:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1118573

(5 pages of talk).

The steam seems to have been blown off. Hope it doesn't die.
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

shaselai1
Librarities Hero
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:55 pm

Post by shaselai1 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:22 am

what's he gonna do with all the "junk packs"? sell them on ebay? I guess one could make a lot of money buying cases, pull money cards and rip others off online.....the tactics he is showing seems to be a way to rip people off than just for fun...guess more power to them..

anyone here works at Wizards?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests