Inquiries about Art misprints

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mmgun
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Post by mmgun » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:51 pm

Since that 1 mm positioning difference is on all lands, i can say yes, there is a 3rd wb and 4th version of this swamp.

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dragsamou
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Post by dragsamou » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:55 pm

mmgun wrote:Since that 1 mm positioning difference is on all lands, i can say yes, there is a 3rd wb and 4th version of this swamp.
Great, I can answer 2 questions then, on my way to update the list =D>
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Neuron
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Post by Neuron » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:17 am

Hi together,

I can confirm that a correct Warp Artifact exists in both Revised and 4th. I once searched some copies from a shop to get the right reference card for my misprint version. In this case, the 4th Warp Artifact can be identfied quite easily. Look at the picture of the El-Hajjaj misprint: You will notice that the horizontal of the black frame is perfectly parallel to the cardboard. Not so the vertical ones, they are clined to the right, making the frame an parallelogram. (Those kind of distorted frames occur on several cards, all I have seen are foreign black or white bordered.) The 4th Warped Artifact is deformed the same way as the El-Hajjaj misprint, but not the Revised one.

I have all three misprints with all reference cards, yet no pictures as I'm starting here right now. Can anyone can tell me a serious free online photo album site?

Thank you!

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dragsamou
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Post by dragsamou » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:33 pm

Neuron wrote:Hi together,

I can confirm that a correct Warp Artifact exists in both Revised and 4th. I once searched some copies from a shop to get the right reference card for my misprint version. In this case, the 4th Warp Artifact can be identfied quite easily. Look at the picture of the El-Hajjaj misprint: You will notice that the horizontal of the black frame is perfectly parallel to the cardboard. Not so the vertical ones, they are clined to the right, making the frame an parallelogram. (Those kind of distorted frames occur on several cards, all I have seen are foreign black or white bordered.) The 4th Warped Artifact is deformed the same way as the El-Hajjaj misprint, but not the Revised one.

I have all three misprints with all reference cards, yet no pictures as I'm starting here right now. Can anyone can tell me a serious free online photo album site?

Thank you!
Hi

Photobucket is a good one, I se it, but you have others also.I will wait for pics before mentioning on my Questions list that a Normal Warp Artifact exists in both Revised and 4th. Thanks for helping.
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Neuron
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Post by Neuron » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Okay, thanks, I will post a picture of 4th during next week. For the German Unlimited, look at MCM, it has the perfect frame.

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Post by Neuron » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:11 pm

The ö is not indicative of the set as with ü, ä and ö all use rounded dots always.
The trema of all three umlauts on DU cards are well-centered, in 4th it's shifted. See:

http://www.trader-online.de

Search for "Keldonischer Kriegsfürst" and "Götterdämmerung". Look at exactly these cards, there are also wrong labeled ones.

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Post by dragsamou » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:12 am

Neuron wrote:
The ö is not indicative of the set as with ü, ä and ö all use rounded dots always.
The trema of all three umlauts on DU cards are well-centered, in 4th it's shifted. See:

http://www.trader-online.de

Search for "Keldonischer Kriegsfürst" and "Götterdämmerung". Look at exactly these cards, there are also wrong labeled ones.
Hi

So according to this, can you reply my questions, I look for the 3 cards, and can't spot no difference on the scans there, as for Manahaken for example the trema are both well centered on "fügt" for Revised and 4th Edition ](*,)

Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German. EXIST
Does a Normal El-hajjaj exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal El-hajjaj exists from 4Th Edition German.EXIST
Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from 4Th Edition German.EXIST

Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage). EXIST
Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Drudge Skeleton exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Swamp exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Drudge Skeleton exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Swamp exists from 4th Edition German.EXIST

Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage). EXIST
Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from 4Th Edition.EXIST
Does a Normal Sedge Troll exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
Last edited by dragsamou on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:56 pm

dragsamou wrote:
cataclysm80 wrote:
A regular print Drudge Skeletons does exist. Here is a link showing the misprint and regular side by side. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-MAGIC-THE-G ... 545wt_1043
Tav
Hi Tav

Great find, now is that Normal Drudge Skeletons from Revised or 4Th Edition German ?
I enlarged the Ebay Drudge Skeletons pic and looked it over. Unfortunately the quality of that picture is not good enough to enlarge it big enough to get a positively measureable difference. The smallest I can measure on the computer screen is 1/32nd of an inch. I want to say that both of those cards are from the same set, but without enlarging it more, I can't be certain.

With two cards in one picture (as long as the picture is good enough to enlarge without getting all fuzzy), as long as both cards have at least 1 letter in the card name that is the same letter, I can compare vertical alignment of the card name to determine if the cards are from the same set or different set. If they are from different set, the one with lower vertical alignment is 3rd. If they are from same set, we will need to use a different identifier to determine which set. Lowercase J, g, p is easiest to compare, but if you enlarge the picture enough then you can compare any letter to the same letter on a different card. I was looking at e because it is on so many cards.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:09 pm

dragsamou wrote:
mmgun wrote: correct, there are no german 3rd WB Sedge Trolls listed on MCM, they even use the french picture, where for all other cards they use german pics.
Hi

It's not because a card is not on MCM that it means, it doesn't exist. Let's keep finding answers, with 101% proof (As Enrico will say). 10 questions, still have no answers #-o

According to this: Unlimitierte Auflage

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/magic-s ... n-red.html
Schilftroll (Sedge Troll)
All copies misprinted: Wrong card title (Manahaken), casting cost, card type, rule text, artist, missing power/toughness
Default User wrote:
For the Sedge Troll/Manabarbs, there are also regular Manabarbs in wb revised, but I've never seen a correct Sedge Troll from the set, altought I haven't opened enough product to be completely certain. I have 9 misprints and 4 correct Manabarbs at home.

Tuomas
It will be very difficult to prove that a card does not exist. We would need to either see all of the cards printed (which I don't think any of us can acomplish), or have a look at an uncut sheet. (which would answer our questions on lots of these misprints) Does anyone have an uncut sheet of German 3rd or 4th?

I also think that a regular print Sedge Troll does not exist in German 3rd.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:35 pm

Default User wrote: Both wb revised and 4th ed had 121 rares so there should only be one version of each rare on the 11x11 sheet, which makes possibly having extra version implausible, unless they used some other sheet size or as others have pointed out the Rivalries/2ps starter boxes version of Warp Artifact explain the correct 4th ed german Warps (on top of the misidentified revised versions) being on sale.

--
Tuomas
A search on gatherer.wizards.com shows 140 rares in Revised ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... anced&set=|["Revised%20Edition"]&rarity=|[R] ) and 147 rares in 4th Edition ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... =|[R]&set=|["Fourth%20Edition"] ).
It would be nice if there could only be one version of each rare, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
EDIT: ACTUALLY, THERE IS ONE SHEET OF 121 RARES IN EACH SET. THE GATHERER SEARCH IS INCORRECT BECAUSE IT SHOWS CARDS THAT WERE PRINTED IN FOURTH EDITION AS COMMON OR UNCOMMON, BUT WERE PRINTED IN OTHER SETS AS RARES.
Regarding the German Two-Player Starter Set, While it may be advertised as 4th Editon on some websites, I believe the actual cards will show a 1996 copyright date which will easily identify them as not being the same print run as 4th Edition.

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dragsamou
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Post by dragsamou » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:06 pm

cataclysm80 wrote: Regarding the German Two-Player Starter Set, While it may be advertised as 4th Editon on some websites, I believe the actual cards will show a 1996 copyright date which will easily identify them as not being the same print run as 4th Edition.
Tav
Hi Tav

Yes indeed those are very easy to identify:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/151-rar ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/147-rar ... erman.html
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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:08 pm

Default User wrote:
dragsamou wrote: According to this: Unlimitierte Auflage

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/magic-s ... black.html
El-Hajjáj (El-Hajjâj)
Card title modified
All copies misprinted: wrong artwork
As for the El-Hajjâj/Warp Artifact, I need to check my copies. I should have couple misprints still left. I think that I also have a revised copy of correct El-Hajjâj hidden somewhere at home and MCM has a scan of wb german revised regular copy, so I would guess thet the misprint is from 4th.
--
Tuomas

Good find Tuomas, Magic Card Market does show a regular print German Revised El-Hajjaj, identifiable by the slashes over the j instead of the round dot. https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/El_Hajja ... 16002.prod

Sorry Dragsamou, that old librarities link seems to be incorrect. The only card title modification that I can see is the slashes vs. the round dots over the i. Also, the wrong artwork copy shows the round dots, indicating that it is from 4th, not 3rd.
I still suspect that the card does not have the wrong artwork, I think it has the wrong text and should be a Warp Artifact.

Now we can say that regular print versions of El-Hajjaj exist in both 3rd & 4th.

Tav

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Post by dragsamou » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:28 pm

cataclysm80 wrote:
Default User wrote:
dragsamou wrote: According to this: Unlimitierte Auflage

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/magic-s ... black.html
El-Hajjáj (El-Hajjâj)
Card title modified
All copies misprinted: wrong artwork
As for the El-Hajjâj/Warp Artifact, I need to check my copies. I should have couple misprints still left. I think that I also have a revised copy of correct El-Hajjâj hidden somewhere at home and MCM has a scan of wb german revised regular copy, so I would guess thet the misprint is from 4th.
--
Tuomas

Good find Tuomas, Magic Card Market does show a regular print German Revised El-Hajjaj, identifiable by the slashes over the j instead of the round dot. https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/El_Hajja ... 16002.prod

Sorry Dragsamou, that old librarities link seems to be incorrect. The only card title modification that I can see is the slashes vs. the round dots over the i. Also, the wrong artwork copy shows the round dots, indicating that it is from 4th, not 3rd.
I still suspect that the card does not have the wrong artwork, I think it has the wrong text and should be a Warp Artifact.

Now we can say that regular print versions of El-Hajjaj exist in both 3rd & 4th.

Tav
Hi Tav

Don't be sorry, I didn't participate in that old thread, as I do not collect either Revised or 4th Edition Foreign WB (Only 1996 4Th Edition in all languages). I hope this topic, will be the Ultimate way to finally make the difference between Revised German and 4th Edition German. I will update for the El-Hajjaj on the list. Once thing is sure...Those 3 Misprints are the headache of the Century :-D
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Post by Blood » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:43 pm

Man. I can not tell you how many games I had back in the day where my buddy Jeff played a first turn El-Hajjaj off of a dark ritual followed up by double unholy strength (pentagram version) turn 2 and those games did not end well for me. He was sure the nuisance back then and it seems he still is today. :-D

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:11 pm

mmgun wrote:More scans for personal headache and CSI measurement investigations.

Ornitopher 3rd WB is correct, 4th version is misspelled.

Cursed land, both versions are wrong according to what the card does ( both say the the land deals the damage, but it should be the enchantment, 3rd BB and 2PS version is correct)
Additionally 3rd WB uses wrong article "der", it should be "das" as seen on 4th version

Image


Here i had to use magnifying glasses to spot the difference on the swamps for 3rd wb and 4th. The positioning of "Land" and "Sumpf" in deed varies about 1 mm. I took mountains as reference, as they are easy to identify because of the dot in letter "i", and they show the same difference as the swamps.
I also added a 2PS swamp version. Happy investigation :)


Image
mmgun, You have an excellent image scanner! Thanks again for the pictures!
I enlarge them bigger than 400%, so that the vertical alignment difference is about 6 milimeters. I measured the cards, and here's what I came up with...

Ornithopter on the left is 3rd. Ornithopter (misspelled) on the right is 4th. You can easily see the vertical alignment difference with the naked eye on these. The p touches the art box border on 3rd, with a small space between the p and the art box border on 4th. The lowercase i slash vs. dot further identifies which set is which. Lower vertical alignment being 3rd edition.

Mountain on the left is 3rd. Mountain on the right is 4th. (the scanner skipped a row of pixels here in the middle of the card name, making the text on 4th look a little shorter, but I'm sure that's not on the actual card.) The art box border on Lands has an extra line around it that is colored to the land, red in the case of mountains. You can see that the g on 3rd entirely covers the red line, while you can still see some of the red line under the g on 4th. Again, the lowercase i slash vs. dot further identifies which set is which.

It's harder to see the difference with the naked eye on the darker cards, but the measurements show that the Swamp on the left is 4th, while the Swamp in the middle is 3rd. Yes, there is a regular Swamp with this art in both sets. Of coarse the Swamp on the right is from Two-Player Starter Set.

The measurements on Cursed Land seem to reveal it to be slightly different from what you had said. The Cursed Land on the Left (Der) is from 4th. The Cursed Land on the right (Das) is from 3rd. Again, I enlarged them so that the vertical alignment difference between the two cards was about 6 milimeters, which is measureable. I'm curious how you had previously identified which one was from which set.

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