I must say I'm kind of "in between".
As a journalist for a French M:tG magazine, I welcome this new source of informations. It will be a real treasure-box, and I wanted to thank Ralph for this :-))
Now, as a rarities collector, I've seen the site increasingly lacking datas for the past few months, and I've thus lost interest in the site (my bookmarks point directly to the forums, actualy).
Now, I may be wrong, but couldn't Ralph "divide" the sum of work and share it with someone else ? Maybe you could keep up the (good) work on the editions datas, and share the rarities section with another webmaster ?
Anyway, Ralph, you've got my mail address, so you know where to find me if you wanna discuss the matter in private ;)
Cheers, and thanks again for all your work (and work to come) =D>
a new beginning
Moderators: cataclysm80, hammr7, l0qii, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp
-
AXIOS
- Legendary Fungusaur Collector
- Posts: 726
- Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:55 pm
- Location: Netherlands
- Contact:
MAybe this could be a good job for Alexis?Jess wrote:
Now, I may be wrong, but couldn't Ralph "divide" the sum of work and share it with someone else ? Maybe you could keep up the (good) work on the editions datas, and share the rarities section with another webmaster ?
Cheers, and thanks again for all your work (and work to come) =D>
Since he is our rarities "God" (no offense meant alexis, i just mean that if anyone wants to know anyhting about a raritie, you got the answer ;) )
Fungusaur legend
find me on facebook: nico jongsma
into all kind of fungusaurs and bog wraiths, especially foreign, misprinted
find me on facebook: nico jongsma
into all kind of fungusaurs and bog wraiths, especially foreign, misprinted
-
mintcollector
- Librarities Legend
- Posts: 637
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:56 pm
- Location: Village of Lakewood, IL
- Contact:
I agree with the fact that I miss the rarity updates being more frequent, but I do think that n other site archives and tracks details about M:TG as a whole. This niche can and should be filled. I think Ralph is also attempting to that on top of things. Does anyone actually feel neglected information-wise because the latest FNM scan is not up? Well enough members here bring that info early on that the information is still being presented.
Ralph is obviously expanding the site coverage to archive all knowledge M:TG-wise. Or at least expanding in that direction. Obviously a lot of work. He is simply asking for help on the task, and instead of offering help, there are just complaints. If someone does not like what is being done, why don't you step up and offer to lend a hand instead of just being complacent and complain?
Ralph is obviously expanding the site coverage to archive all knowledge M:TG-wise. Or at least expanding in that direction. Obviously a lot of work. He is simply asking for help on the task, and instead of offering help, there are just complaints. If someone does not like what is being done, why don't you step up and offer to lend a hand instead of just being complacent and complain?
See my current needs here: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mintcollector/
-
hammr7
- Librarities Legend
- Posts: 698
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:29 pm
- Location: Southern New Jersey
Personally, I agree with those who wish to have one centralized source for as much Magic information as possible. My concern with the impending upgrade is not that it isn't necessary. Rather, it has to do with what happens to the Rarities side, and also optimizing the manner in which the "regular" set side is implemented.
On a major note, like others I am concerned by the amount of time such an expansive upgrade of standard products will take. Everything always takes longer than you expect. And as many members have pointed out, work on maintaining the rarities side will be minimized.
We have had past discussions of many types of Magic-related rarities that might be added to the site. Unfortunately none of these will even be considered until the current categories of rarities are up-to-date. And even if you take a narrow view of rarities (i.e. items Manufactured or endorsed by Wizards of the Coast with specific application to Magic: The Gathering), there are many additional categories that could be included. These include everything from event-specific items to apparal to promotional give-aways. For some of the older items, lost time means less chances at getting the real story on the item origins and their true rarity. And for most of these items there is no other centralized source of information in the world.
On a minor note, it appears the proposed update is extremely retail product-focused, rather than complete set-focussed. To be specific, I am not an unopened product collector. When I enter the main page of a set, I would expect overall data on that particular complete set. I believe such a setup would appeal to all possible collectors of that set.
From such a main page I would expect links to specifics such as production details (the raritiy types, contents of each uncut sheet), distribution details (languages the set came in, what products were available in each language, specific contents of each product offering), perhaps a language cross-reference for the cards in the set, and a list of variations (such as alternate arts, picture or text screw-ups, etc.). Spoilers, expansion symbols, and card pictures, and relevant anecdotes about the set could also be included.
As the upgrade stands, however, it appears to be done with a focus towards the unopened product collector. In its layout, all data is derived from each type of retail product. You need to click on a product type to find what was in the set, and then you only find it from the contents of each rarity sheet.
I realize that for English sets I can go to one of the spoilers from Crystal Keep, or trudge through the Wizards site. But for non-English sets this option doesn't work.
As an example of a potential complication, where would a cross-reference table of card names by language go (a listing that shows what the same card is named in every language the card was issued in)? If someone wanted a universal complete set, where would they go to find all the set variations (like alternate arts). Would they have to scroll through each product offering for each language? Would they even be able to determine that a card in one language was a major variation of that card from the English one?
As proposed, there is also great deal of data redundancy. There are numerous copies of each uncut sheet for each set (one for each product offering). If the picture library ever gets to the point of including links to pictures of some or all cards, then the upkeep of links will become overwhelming. But without pictures, how will the database be able to show what differences (including alternate arts) look like, and are normal to sets versus those that are errors.
In summary, there are alternate ways to present all the data in the proposed update, and some of these can make current exploration and future maintenance much easier.
On a major note, like others I am concerned by the amount of time such an expansive upgrade of standard products will take. Everything always takes longer than you expect. And as many members have pointed out, work on maintaining the rarities side will be minimized.
We have had past discussions of many types of Magic-related rarities that might be added to the site. Unfortunately none of these will even be considered until the current categories of rarities are up-to-date. And even if you take a narrow view of rarities (i.e. items Manufactured or endorsed by Wizards of the Coast with specific application to Magic: The Gathering), there are many additional categories that could be included. These include everything from event-specific items to apparal to promotional give-aways. For some of the older items, lost time means less chances at getting the real story on the item origins and their true rarity. And for most of these items there is no other centralized source of information in the world.
On a minor note, it appears the proposed update is extremely retail product-focused, rather than complete set-focussed. To be specific, I am not an unopened product collector. When I enter the main page of a set, I would expect overall data on that particular complete set. I believe such a setup would appeal to all possible collectors of that set.
From such a main page I would expect links to specifics such as production details (the raritiy types, contents of each uncut sheet), distribution details (languages the set came in, what products were available in each language, specific contents of each product offering), perhaps a language cross-reference for the cards in the set, and a list of variations (such as alternate arts, picture or text screw-ups, etc.). Spoilers, expansion symbols, and card pictures, and relevant anecdotes about the set could also be included.
As the upgrade stands, however, it appears to be done with a focus towards the unopened product collector. In its layout, all data is derived from each type of retail product. You need to click on a product type to find what was in the set, and then you only find it from the contents of each rarity sheet.
I realize that for English sets I can go to one of the spoilers from Crystal Keep, or trudge through the Wizards site. But for non-English sets this option doesn't work.
As an example of a potential complication, where would a cross-reference table of card names by language go (a listing that shows what the same card is named in every language the card was issued in)? If someone wanted a universal complete set, where would they go to find all the set variations (like alternate arts). Would they have to scroll through each product offering for each language? Would they even be able to determine that a card in one language was a major variation of that card from the English one?
As proposed, there is also great deal of data redundancy. There are numerous copies of each uncut sheet for each set (one for each product offering). If the picture library ever gets to the point of including links to pictures of some or all cards, then the upkeep of links will become overwhelming. But without pictures, how will the database be able to show what differences (including alternate arts) look like, and are normal to sets versus those that are errors.
In summary, there are alternate ways to present all the data in the proposed update, and some of these can make current exploration and future maintenance much easier.
-
Ralph Herold
- Legendary Magic Library Administrator
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: Germany
I am a little in a hurry, so I will keep it short. I wish to clarify that I will work on Magic Rarities parallel to Magic Sets. I will also add new products as I encounter the sections where they will be placed in. Expect to see an updated section of Arena League promos (including the latest Arena League promos) very soon.
No matter in which sequence I work on specific parts of the website and which type of items I maintain coverage for, I WILL NEED support. This website has no future if I am to maintain it alone, even if I decided not to rebuild it. Member dragsamou has now officially been added to the new staff. Others may follow if they can and want to provide valuable services.
hammr7: I will reply properly at a later date. All I want to know is whether you have seen that these particular pages exist:
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
They should contain much of what you asked for. They can be reached by clicking on the set logo on the edition index pages.
No matter in which sequence I work on specific parts of the website and which type of items I maintain coverage for, I WILL NEED support. This website has no future if I am to maintain it alone, even if I decided not to rebuild it. Member dragsamou has now officially been added to the new staff. Others may follow if they can and want to provide valuable services.
hammr7: I will reply properly at a later date. All I want to know is whether you have seen that these particular pages exist:
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrary.net/magic-sets/ ... index.html
They should contain much of what you asked for. They can be reached by clicking on the set logo on the edition index pages.
-
Ralph Herold
- Legendary Magic Library Administrator
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: Germany
The next step for Magic Sets will be Revised Edition. Since the logos on the booster images I have are a little small, I will need large scans of the logos. They need to be a scan of the official product, but it does not matter whether they origin from a Booster. I still need:
- English Revised Edition logo
- Italian white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- Italian black-bordered Revised Edition logo
- French white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- French black-bordered Revised Edition logo
- German white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- German black-bordered Revised Edition logo
- English Revised Edition logo
- Italian white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- Italian black-bordered Revised Edition logo
- French white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- French black-bordered Revised Edition logo
- German white-bordered Revised Edition logo
- German black-bordered Revised Edition logo
-
Ralph Herold
- Legendary Magic Library Administrator
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: Germany
I have added a new Magic Library main page and improved the already existing pages to some degree. Clear your cache and (re-)visit www.magiclibrary.net.
-
Ralph Herold
- Legendary Magic Library Administrator
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: Germany
hammr7: I wish to comment now on your list of statements regarding the new layout:
The coverage is both set- and product-focused. Every set is given an index page which summarizes all the important pieces of data about the set and links to card checklists. I am sure you have just missed the pages. I improved the overall link structure to make it more obvious.On a minor note, it appears the proposed update is extremely retail product-focused, rather than complete set-focussed. To be specific, I am not an unopened product collector. When I enter the main page of a set, I would expect overall data on that particular complete set. I believe such a setup would appeal to all possible collectors of that set.
Rarity levels and quantities of cards per sheet are given in a table of each set index page. The rarity level of each card is shown in the card lists.From such a main page I would expect links to specifics such as production details (the raritiy types, contents of each uncut sheet),
Both the available languages and the products per language can be seen on block index pages for each set. The contents of each product are listed on separate pages for each product.distribution details (languages the set came in, what products were available in each language, specific contents of each product offering),
A neat idea I will probably add at a later date.perhaps a language cross-reference for the cards in the set,
Each card list has a column named Notes which aims to cover all this kind of information. To keep the update manageable, I have declared this a separate update step for the future.and a list of variations (such as alternate arts, picture or text screw-ups, etc.).
Spoilers in each language are very hard to find at all and are an overwhelming increase in workload. Depending on how much support I receive, this might be part of a future enhancement. The same is true to an even greater extent for card images. Expansion symbols appear as part of the set lists and will also be shown in greater detail on the index pages of each set. Anecdotes are not a very well defined area. Depending on how much useful information is not covered already, they might find a place somewhere.Spoilers, expansion symbols, and card pictures, and relevant anecdotes about the set could also be included.
Wrong. See comments above.As the upgrade stands, however, it appears to be done with a focus towards the unopened product collector. In its layout, all data is derived from each type of retail product. You need to click on a product type to find what was in the set, and then you only find it from the contents of each rarity sheet.
Such a table would be placed on each block index page and can be added retroactively without much work.As an example of a potential complication, where would a cross-reference table of card names by language go (a listing that shows what the same card is named in every language the card was issued in)?
I have planned to add a complete list of reprints at a later date with a focus on variations. This table will of course cause even more work, so it is part of a future update. All that counts now is that is can be added easily as part of the Magic Sets main page at a later date.If someone wanted a universal complete set, where would they go to find all the set variations (like alternate arts). Would they have to scroll through each product offering for each language? Would they even be able to determine that a card in one language was a major variation of that card from the English one?
Redundancy is to be avoided. However, redundancy is just one aspect of a greater entity and lies in conflict with other, equally important aspects like navigatibility, continuity, elegance etc. Therefore, a certain amount of redundancy is unavoidable. I wish to emphasize that some pieces of information which are redundant for older sets will not be redundant for more modern sets (Just think of single card sources against a modern background occupied with products like Fat Packs, Two Player Starter Sets, Gift Boxes, Theme Decks, and of course nonproduct sources like magazines.)As proposed, there is also great deal of data redundancy.
As far as card images are concerned, they will probably linked to from one central page per set (such as the set index pages) and not on a card by card basis spread on all pages. Therefore, additional work to add images will be kept to an acceptable level (not counting the work necessary to create the card images themselves of course). Like said above, single card images are not part of the current update.There are numerous copies of each uncut sheet for each set (one for each product offering). If the picture library ever gets to the point of including links to pictures of some or all cards, then the upkeep of links will become overwhelming.
As it used to be, cards worth of note, such as promotional cards, alternate art cards, and the like, will receive in-depth coverage including images in separate parts of the website.But without pictures, how will the database be able to show what differences (including alternate arts) look like, and are normal to sets versus those that are errors.
I disagree. I have taken months to envision the new look for the website, and I have taken measures to overcome a lot of obstacles for possible future site enhancements I have foreseen. I am therefore convinced that the new layout is fully prepared to stand the test of time. The only real improvement would be a database driven website, but I neither have experience to program this myself nor the desire to put the technical part of the website completely into foreign hands.In summary, there are alternate ways to present all the data in the proposed update, and some of these can make current exploration and future maintenance much easier.
-
TerraFrost
- Legendary Creature For Hire
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:19 am
- Location: Austin, TX
- Contact:
Didn't someone design a PHP / MySQL version of the site once upon a time? Doing a search at the old forum revealed this link, but I don't think that's the thread I was thinking of...Thanks. All the data is coded in flat HTML / CSS pages, so layout changes will cause a lot of trouble as more and more pages are created. The next incarnation of this website, should there ever be one, will probably be database driven, but I will have to learn programming PHP first before ever thinking about switching to such a system.
Anyway, if a PHP-based solution were ever to be used, the code ought to be examined before going live, to make sure it doesn't contain any vulnerabilities. The thing is, although a PHP-based website can very definitly make updates easier, failing (for instance) to properly escape select characters in the username can lead to security issues.
Of course, this isn't a problem exclusive to PHP, either.
Also, to sorta give an antedote as to why a PHP-based solution would be a good thing... the place I work at has a webpage that's done in pure-HTML. It's pretty much been the same page for several years, but probably 5-10 people have, at varrious times, tried to make updates. They all have different coding standards, and all in all, the webpage has very definitly degenerated. A website that used to look the same across all browsers now only really works in one, etc.
This isn't really a problem if just one person maintains the website, but if multiple people are trying to do so, it could indeed be a problem.
-
Ralph Herold
- Legendary Magic Library Administrator
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: Germany
TerraFrost: Do not worry, aside from specific content replacements, all code editing will be done by me. I have invested a lot of time to learn how to code W3C-concurrent HTML/CSS. One of the goals for the new code has been to create a website which looks as similar as possible on different browsers. I will not sacrifice this new achievement.
-
victorcamp
- Librarities Legend
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:27 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
New Layout
Well, HELLO RALPH!
First, a quick reply to TerraFrost. Yes, I built a complete, database-driven version of the website during the transition from Bob to Ralph. Ralph and I discussed it at length, and I have to agree that maintaining the site without a sufficient degree of technical knowledge would only lead to problems. Though I still retain a copy of it, the demo site has long been deleted from Bob's server. It's now quite ancient.
When you are ready, Ralph, I'll try to be there for help and support. I have experience parsing flat HTML code to put it into a database. It would be possible, whenever you're ready, to automate the whole process. Pushing one button could strip all the relevant data and place it into tables.
Now on to the new layout! Its organization and thoroughness is FABULOUS! As you and I have discussed before, the goal of being THE definitive site for all Magic info, both obscure (its historical role) and common is admirable and doable. I am well aware of the time it takes to complete the work given your (and my) level of perfectionism. If it's gonna be done, it's gonna be done right!
I especially like the option of clicking an image to get a large version of the card; perfect for those of us like me who like to keep their own personal archive.
Now that I am working again at a job I enjoy (and pays), I will gradually return to a routine of keeping up with Magic and the site. I'm available for some small tasks immediately, and look forward to giving more extensive help in the near future.
Great work!
--Vic
First, a quick reply to TerraFrost. Yes, I built a complete, database-driven version of the website during the transition from Bob to Ralph. Ralph and I discussed it at length, and I have to agree that maintaining the site without a sufficient degree of technical knowledge would only lead to problems. Though I still retain a copy of it, the demo site has long been deleted from Bob's server. It's now quite ancient.
When you are ready, Ralph, I'll try to be there for help and support. I have experience parsing flat HTML code to put it into a database. It would be possible, whenever you're ready, to automate the whole process. Pushing one button could strip all the relevant data and place it into tables.
Now on to the new layout! Its organization and thoroughness is FABULOUS! As you and I have discussed before, the goal of being THE definitive site for all Magic info, both obscure (its historical role) and common is admirable and doable. I am well aware of the time it takes to complete the work given your (and my) level of perfectionism. If it's gonna be done, it's gonna be done right!
I especially like the option of clicking an image to get a large version of the card; perfect for those of us like me who like to keep their own personal archive.
Now that I am working again at a job I enjoy (and pays), I will gradually return to a routine of keeping up with Magic and the site. I'm available for some small tasks immediately, and look forward to giving more extensive help in the near future.
Great work!
--Vic
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests