japanese 7th foil COP White

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mmgun
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japanese 7th foil COP White

Post by mmgun » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:36 pm

You probably know about the misprinted japanese 7th COP White, which has a power and toughness printed on it. Until today my assumption was , all foil version of this card have this error. But now i found a correct japanese 7th foil COP White.

The question is now:
1)
Was there a 2nd print run of japanese 7th Foils ? If yes, they would not do this for only one card, so there should be more errors in japanese 7th . But i dont know of any other errors, so this theory seems unlikely.

2)
Usually when we see the Art errors on a card, it is a layout error, where by "copy and paste" partial details of one cards were copied accidently to another. ( e.g. spanish Time Elemental /Serra Angel)
So my assumption here is: A correct jap foil 7th COP White exists, and the Misprint version was meant to be another card, which probably was a 1/1 creature and a common, and maybe even white ?
The big question is, what japanese foil 7th common card was misprinted here ? Does someone have a complete set to verify this theory ?

Apologize the blue coloration, its from bad scanner settings:

Image
Last edited by mmgun on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Neuron
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Post by Neuron » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:30 pm

I don't own a full set, but I would say an error where everything but P/T is misprinted is not very probable.

cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:01 am

Interesting that you found a correct version.
I don't have either. Is the misprint version is more common?
I wonder if it could be from a theme deck or two player starter set?

Tav

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Post by berkumps » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:36 am

If the misprint COP replaced another common on the japanese 7e foil common sheet, then it should have a different rosette pattern than a corrected COP. If they have the same pattern, then they are probably from the same sheet location, and then possibly the error was fixed at some point during printing (or between print runs).

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Post by dragsamou » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:43 am

cataclysm80 wrote:Interesting that you found a correct version.
I don't have either. Is the misprint version is more common?
I wonder if it could be from a theme deck or two player starter set?

Tav
Hi Tav

The Misprint version is the most common (like the Japanese Cursed Scroll for example), Theme Decks doesn't have a foil inserted that I do remember and there's no COP White in the 5 Theme Decks 7Th Edition and the Only foil inserted in 7Th Edition Two player Starter set was Thorn Elemental card. One thing is sure a bunch of Japanese Editions and Extensions did have multiples printings, and some cards were fixed (Ex: Mirage, Tempest, etc....)

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/tcg/pr ... deck#deck1

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Post by mmgun » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:35 pm

berkumps wrote:If the misprint COP replaced another common on the japanese 7e foil common sheet, then it should have a different rosette pattern than a corrected COP. If they have the same pattern, then they are probably from the same sheet location, and then possibly the error was fixed at some point during printing (or between print runs).

What is a rosette pattern and how do i check this ?

cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:12 pm

mmgun wrote: What is a rosette pattern and how do i check this ?
Here we go... (not sure why the picture links aren't working at the moment, but you can copy paste them into a new browser tab to see them)

Magic cards have been printed for Wizards of the Coast by Carta Mundi on Heidelberg & KBA sheet fed offset printing presses. These presses use an inked printing plate to stamp (press) the image onto the sheet. Sheets are typically 11 cards high by 11 cards wide, although there can be some variation between sets. To keep the inks from mixing, the press can only do one color at a time. The more colors (times you have to feed the sheet through the press), the more expensive the printing. Printing presses typically use 4 colors. Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black This is known is CMYK printing. (K actually stands for Key, not Black, although Black is usually the Key color.) The order that the colors are printed in affects the final color of the finished product. Because of this limited number of colors, offset printing (and screen printing) use a process called Halftone. Inkjet and laser printers normally produce only one size of dot with one size of spacing between those dots, for example 600 Dots Per Inch. The Halftone process uses different sizes, spacing, and shapes of spots to create the optical illusion of colors blending together or from one to another. To create these different sizes, spacings, and shapes of spots, each halftone cell is comprised of a 16 by 16 grid of dots. (You could have a smaller grid, but picture quality would suffer. 16 x 16 provides 256 shades of each color which is necessary for good picture quality.) Offset printing (and screen printing) resolution is measured in Lines Per Inch rather than Dots Per Inch. Lines Per Inch is the number of halftone cells per inch.

Printing press ink is somewhat transparent, so colors below can show through a bit, but you wouldn't want each layer of ink completely covered by the next layer, so the angle of the halftone dots is typically adjusted to be different for each color.

Image

The angles are not the same on every set. You have to be careful which angles are chosen because you could create patterns that the human eye will pick up, which distracts from the artwork and is undesirable. One of the most acceptable patterns that can be created is called the rosette. It's sort of like a lumpy circle. Real Magic cards should have the rosette pattern on any part of the card where all four colors of ink were used. (most of the card) You'll need to view the card under magnification to see the rosette pattern. A 600 DPI scan is barely enough to see the pattern, so it would be difficult to make a good comparison of two cards using a 600 DPI scan. A 2400 DPI scan works great, but somewhere in the middle would probably also work, with more DPI being better.

Here is an up close view of a Sol Ring from the set called Revised. Notice the circular patterns in the brown portion of the artifact card frame, this is the rosette pattern. It appears on portions of the card that use all the colors. The artwork on this particular card is mostly red and yellow. At the lower left is a portion that is only yellow, and you can see that the yellow dots run horizontally. Meanwhile, the red dots elsewhere have a noticeable angle.

Image

So we understand that each card is printed with multiple layered grids of dots, and each layer is at a different angle. This creates something called a moire pattern. The human eye is VERY good at picking up patterns. Unfortunately, these patterns can distract you from the artwork that you're supposed to be seeing. Changing the angle of any or all of the layers would change the pattern that you see. Angles are carefully chosen to create a rosette pattern, which is one of the least noticeable moire patterns. It also helps that the dots are really small.

However, the pattern does not look the same over the entire surface of the card. The rosette circles will be most clearly visible in areas of the card that use all of the color layers. The rosettes will be least visible in areas of the card that use only one color layer. A single color layer will just look like a grid of dots. The rest of the card where only some of the color layers are used will have partial rosettes, which the eye usually picks up as different patterns. I've heard them described as C's, ninja stars, snowflakes, etc. People see a lot of different things, it just depends on how your eye is adjusted. Sometimes it's difficult to focus through a loupe, which is one of the reasons a good scanner is better.

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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l0qii
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Post by l0qii » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:52 pm

For 2 cards to have the exact same rosette pattern wouldn't the precision of how and where the dots fall on the sheet have to be extremely exact? I don't think rosette patterns are even identical across all printings of the same card within the same set. Am I wrong?

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Post by berkumps » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:20 pm

In my experience, the differences in the pattern between a card that is only printed once on a sheet are quite small compared to the differences in the pattern between the same card from different sheet locations (either from appearing more than once on a sheet, or appearing in different sheet locations due to layout changes from one print run to the next as in booster and starter sheets).

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Post by Neuron » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:27 pm

l0qii wrote:For 2 cards to have the exact same rosette pattern wouldn't the precision of how and where the dots fall on the sheet have to be extremely exact? I don't think rosette patterns are even identical across all printings of the same card within the same set. Am I wrong?
You are correct. In English Legends cards, for instance, the pattern can vary very much and this is a set without multiple print runs (as far as I know, at least).
In new sets (starting with 8th Edition), however, cards look a lot more similar.


You could have a smaller grid, but picture quality would suffer.
I think that's correct if the dots are left at the same size. If everything would be smaller, the quality should incease, shouldn't it?
I sometimes wondered why the circles didn't become smaller, I often find them blatant when looking closer on cards.

cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:52 pm

I agree that English Legends only had 1 print run.

Regarding the 16 by 16 grid size...
16x16=256 shades possible
"smaller grid" was intended to mean a grid that is less than 16x16, regardless of the actual physical dimensions of that grid.
For example, a 12 by 12 grid could produce only 144 shades of that color, which wouldn't look as good as 256 shades, even if it was printed at a high resolution.
(In fact, a higher resolution version might provide more definition between the 144 colors, making it look worse, like a cartoon or paint by number. 144 shades is only about half of 256.)

For simplification, lets imagine a grid that's 2 by 2, which has only 4 possible shades of a color. A 2 x 2 grid has 4 spaces in it. If only 1 of those spaces is filled with color, then that is the lightest shade possible of that color. You could also have 2 spaces or 3 spaces of the grid filled with color, which would be progressively darker. Or, you could have all 4 spaces of the grid colored, which would be the darkest possible shade of that color.

The 16 x 16 grid is not really something that you would see ON the card, but is more related to how the dots on the card are made to be different sizes (and possibly different shapes).

In other words, the lightest shade of a color that is possible would be a very small dot filling only 1 space on the 16x16 grid, while the darkest shade of a color that is possible would be a very large dot filling all 256 spaces on the 16x16 grid. This is how the dots are made to be different sizes, and is also related to how much space is between dots.

Here's some links with more info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halftone
http://graphicdesign.spokanefalls.edu/t ... tones.html


You're correct about quality increasing if the physical dimensions of everything are smaller. This is called greater resolution.

I've noticed that the resolution Magic cards are printed at has changed to a higher quality at least once, and this did result in a smaller rosette pattern. (same pattern, just smaller)
I haven't taken the time to figure out exactly when the change happened. Zendikar was printed at 200 LPI. If you can look at an uncut sheet edge, this information is printed on it along with the file name, etc.
English Legends has larger rosettes, printed at a lesser LPI, I'm guessing around 155 LPI. The change was somewhere in the middle.
The change might have happened when Carta Mundi switched from Heidelberg to KBA presses, or maybe when they opened the Texas print facility, or maybe when 8th edition came out, but possibly at anytime.
If anyone can post the info from sheet edges here, it may save a lot of time looking at cards to figure it out.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:22 am

If you're studying rosettes, you may want to have a look at this picture.
It's a close up of two Giant Strength cards from English Legends.
As mentioned above, English Legends only had one print run, so these cards should both be made with the same printing plates. Also, this card only appeared on the sheet once.

One of these cards is normal. The other card has a registration error. (That's when the printer feeds the sheet slightly off from what it should have done.) I haven't decided if it's the Black which is shifted to the Left, or the Red which is shifted to the Right.

Image

Another good card to look at would be Runesword from English The Dark. That card appeared on the sheet more than once (twice on the Uncommon sheet if I recall correctly), and you can easily identify which one is which because one of the two has a long black mark like a hair in the text box. It might be interesting to compare two cards which are known to be from different locations on the same sheet.

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by dragsamou » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:19 am

cataclysm80 wrote: Here we go... (not sure why the picture links aren't working at the moment, but you can copy paste them into a new browser tab to see them)
Image

Image

Image

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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:11 pm

dragsamou wrote: same for the others. it's because you didn't use the proper embedded code.
I had a similar problem with photobucket on another machine once. Not sure if it's photobucket or the machine which is having the issue. Photobucket won't let me copy the image address. Maybe I can fix it from a different computer later.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:16 am

OK, pictures fixed.

Tav

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