Unlimited, Summer, 4th Edition and French/German Test Prints

Everything else informative about Magic items and events.

Moderators: cataclysm80, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp, hammr7, l0qii

User avatar
dragsamou
Administrator
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Paris

Post by dragsamou » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:53 pm

ende73 wrote:I checked through my cards and feel safe in confirming the Konnen fliegen Waldfeen is from German FWB or German WB REV (unlimitierte) and not from 4th.

This is based on me owning several Konnen fliegen versions and no Fliegend ones and since I only bought some German FWB or German WB REV packs in 1995 (i.e. the ones with dual lands) and no GER 4th edition ones.

Also, konnen fliegen literally means "can fly" whereas the other wording means "flying", and I'd expect the language on the foreign cards to evolve to be in better accordance with English as sets advance, and not viceversa.
Thanks Enrico, I just add 4 Scans to show the difference :wink: Seriously, I understand now why Hans and Ralph wrote in a post that having a Complete Revised and 4Th Edition German Sets was almost an impossible task, and that in fact very few German Collectors own those ](*,)
If only they could have created a French/German complete Set, it will have been easier :-D
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

ouallada
Librarities Legend
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:51 am

Post by ouallada » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:05 pm

ende73 wrote:I checked through my cards and feel safe in confirming the Konnen fliegen Waldfeen is from German FWB or German WB REV (unlimitierte) and not from 4th.

This is based on me owning several Konnen fliegen versions and no Fliegend ones and since I only bought some German FWB or German WB REV packs in 1995 (i.e. the ones with dual lands) and no GER 4th edition ones.

Also, konnen fliegen literally means "can fly" whereas the other wording means "flying", and I'd expect the language on the foreign cards to evolve to be in better accordance with English as sets advance, and not viceversa.
Well, we did go from "flying" to "can fly" and back to "flying", so any progression is debatable :-O

ouallada
Librarities Legend
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:51 am

Post by ouallada » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:12 pm

Okay, for scryb sprites, it's a bit more problematic, because we go from fbb (same as f/g waldfeen) to different (german fwb rev) to same (4th). With Wall of Wood, it's simpler. Only the fbb text is identical to that of the f/g Holy Armour/Wall of Wood. That still likely means that the fbb text was carried over as the default templates.

User avatar
ende73
Legendary Righteous Phoenix Mage
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Rome (Italy)

Post by ende73 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:45 pm

ouallada wrote:
ende73 wrote:I checked through my cards and feel safe in confirming the Konnen fliegen Waldfeen is from German FWB or German WB REV (unlimitierte) and not from 4th.

This is based on me owning several Konnen fliegen versions and no Fliegend ones and since I only bought some German FWB or German WB REV packs in 1995 (i.e. the ones with dual lands) and no GER 4th edition ones.

Also, konnen fliegen literally means "can fly" whereas the other wording means "flying", and I'd expect the language on the foreign cards to evolve to be in better accordance with English as sets advance, and not viceversa.
Well, we did go from "flying" to "can fly" and back to "flying", so any progression is debatable :-O
Actually the very first version was Fliegen rather than Fliegend, which would better transalte as "fly" (pls some German member help here, I'm only half-german...), so my progression theory would hold.

ouallada
Librarities Legend
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:51 am

Post by ouallada » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:55 pm

Makes sense.

cataclysm80
Librarities Legend
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:09 pm
Location: Florida

Post by cataclysm80 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:07 pm

I see where I went wrong with the Scryb Sprites identification now. I’m sure I would have been able to figure it out via text alignment once I had both versions in front of me, but thanks for correcting me. I’ll move the one I have in my binder and edit my want list appropriately.
dragsamou wrote: 4Th Edition will be this one: I didn't notice any difference with the German Introductory Two-Player Set Cards
Vierte Edition (4th)

Image
The copyright date isn’t pictured in that scan. That could BE an Introductory Two-Player Set card.
dragsamou wrote: i'm right now verifying all of them from pics of this German Website:
http://www.trader-online.de/Magic-Einze ... eutsch.php
Neuron wrote: The trema of all three umlauts on DU cards are well-centered, in 4th it's shifted. See:
http://www.trader-online.de
Search for "Keldonischer Kriegsfürst" and "Götterdämmerung". Look at exactly these cards, as there are also wrong labeled ones.
Neuron wrote: Nevertheless, as I told, Trader labels a lot of cards wrong, so do not use it if you want right answers.
I agree with Neuron, you should be very carefull using that site for 3rd vs 4th card identification because it's not always correct. If you can't see the copyright date or the color of the card border it can be extremely difficult to tell what set a card is from. They could use some better images.

Tav

Neuron
Legendary Print Variant Explorer
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:57 am
Location: Europe

Post by Neuron » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:54 pm

1) These are UNL test prints. This was done because we know what UNL/Rev (theoretically, Rev) test prints look like from above, and simple induction means that as the game matured from UNL to Rev and onwards, prototypes improve with the times. Occam's Razor, and all that (even though Occam's Razor as devised by William of Ockham did not actually mean that). Let us make this acceptable conclusion that these have to post UNL due to the increased quality of the test prints.
I would say ruling them out as UNL test prints is a sure thing. From UNL to REV WOTC made the art box a bit higher. I didn't measure the pics here, yet eyeballing them they look post UNL to me.
Last edited by Neuron on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Neuron
Legendary Print Variant Explorer
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:57 am
Location: Europe

Post by Neuron » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:19 pm

dragsamou wrote:
4Th Edition will be this one: I didn't notice any difference with the German Introductory Two-Player Set Cards
Vierte Edition (4th)

Image

The copyright date isn’t pictured in that scan. That could BE an Introductory Two-Player Set card.
You can see the upper part of the copyright date. It's definitely Intro.

ende73 wrote:
I checked through my cards and feel safe in confirming the Konnen fliegen Waldfeen is from German FWB or German WB REV (unlimitierte) and not from 4th.
It seems that the sets aren't completley distinguishable by the "flying" translation. I have Birds of Paradise from DU and 4th (recognizable easily through the shape of the "i" dot) and they both have "Können fliegen".
I agree with Neuron, you should be very carefull using that site for 3rd vs 4th card identification because it's not always correct.
Yes, it's really vain to use Trader unbiasedly. Up to now, there is no site which shows DU and 4th correctly. No economical thinking dealer would spend months in figuring out which is which :'-(. I think we should persuade a collector who has both sets to scan them.

If we had them in highres here in the library, a lot of things would become easier.

cataclysm80
Librarities Legend
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:09 pm
Location: Florida

Post by cataclysm80 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:30 pm

ende73 wrote: konnen fliegen literally means "can fly"
ouallada wrote: Well, we did go from "flying" to "can fly" and back to "flying", so any progression is debatable :-O
ende73 wrote: Actually the very first version was Fliegen rather than Fliegend, which would better transalte as "fly"
So we went from "Fly" to "Can Fly" to "Flying". progression re-established.

German/French test prints still using the Foreign Black Border text and text box alignment. It would seem that these German/French test prints were either made FOR foreign black border, or made FROM foreign black border. I think that made FROM foreign black border is more likely.
I think I would place them as being printed AFTER German black border, DURING the French black border printing (due to copyright line), as test prints FOR the foreign white border cards that were about to be printed.

The copyright line on the test print looks more bold than on other French cards. It reminds me of the Italian white border Revised cards with bold copyright lines.

I haven't compared the vertical alignment of the card name yet, but if the test print lines up with anything, I'd expect it to line up with FBB because the rest of the text matches FBB.

It's interesting that the Font is different on these German/French test prints. I'm guessing that they were considering a new font and then decided not to change it. We know that the font did change (only slightly) a year later in 1995 after English 4th & Italian The Dark were printed.

Any speculation as to WHY these test prints were made? What was being tested?

Looking at my Waldfeen test print today, I notice that it is slightly taller than a regular card. Maybe half milimeter difference. Anyone else notice this with theirs?

Tav

cataclysm80
Librarities Legend
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:09 pm
Location: Florida

Post by cataclysm80 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Neuron wrote: I think we should persuade a collector who has both sets to scan them.

If we had them in highres here in the library, a lot of things would become easier.

I second this motion!

Tav

User avatar
dragsamou
Administrator
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Paris

Post by dragsamou » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:26 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Neuron wrote: I think we should persuade a collector who has both sets to scan them.

If we had them in highres here in the library, a lot of things would become easier.

I second this motion!

Tav
To my knowledge, I know only 2 Collectors that have them, but it's a real possibility that those sets were sold as both stopped collecting MTG years ago.
Maybe a third one, I need to verify, and I believe that some "Old"German Members eventually possess one.
cataclysm80 wrote: Looking at my Waldfeen test print today, I notice that it is slightly taller than a regular card. Maybe half milimeter difference. Anyone else notice this with theirs?
Tav
Hi Tav

I believe yours is the Amy Weber one, correct ? It's on Normal MTG Card stock ? Can you please post HD Scans, I will do the same with the 2 I own, that are "Test Prints" not finished, ready to be sent, as the 50 ones of Amy Weber.

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... sa+pegasus
ende73 wrote:I am confused.

I own one (got it from Amy Weber) and it's exactly the normal MTG carstock (passes the bend test by the way), with a perfect MTG back and the dot pattern looks like normal older white cards too (I have the Mesa Pegasus picture).

Just the colors are a bit brighter and of course the font is different. picture's wrong etc.

In other words, mine at least looks exactly like a WOTC produced test print.
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

cataclysm80
Librarities Legend
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:09 pm
Location: Florida

Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:29 am

dragsamou wrote:
cataclysm80 wrote: Looking at my Waldfeen test print today, I notice that it is slightly taller than a regular card. Maybe half milimeter difference. Anyone else notice this with theirs?
Tav
Hi Tav

I believe yours is the Amy Weber one, correct ? It's on Normal MTG Card stock ? Can you please post HD Scans, I will do the same with the 2 I own, that are "Test Prints" not finished, ready to be sent, as the 50 ones of Amy Weber.

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... sa+pegasus
ende73 wrote:I am confused.

I own one (got it from Amy Weber) and it's exactly the normal MTG carstock (passes the bend test by the way), with a perfect MTG back and the dot pattern looks like normal older white cards too (I have the Mesa Pegasus picture).

Just the colors are a bit brighter and of course the font is different. picture's wrong etc.

In other words, mine at least looks exactly like a WOTC produced test print.
I'm not sure of the origin of my Waldfeen/Mesa Pegasus. I spoke with Amy Weber about getting one, but she was in the process of relocating her art studio and could not help. The one I have came from Gunslinga. Hard to say how many hands it has passed through or where it originated. The card stock is definately not normal though, It feels thinner. I don't have a tool to measure that at the moment, so it may not actually BE thinner, but it is definately more flexible and not as stiff as a normal Magic card. The surface is noticeably more glossy than normal. Under magnification, the usual dot pattern is present.

Here is a scan of the back as you requested.

Image

Tav

cataclysm80
Librarities Legend
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:09 pm
Location: Florida

Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:42 am

Neuron wrote: From UNL to REV WOTC made the art box a bit higher. I didn't measure the pics here, yet eyeballing them they look post UNL to me.
I had forgotten about this. Yes, the art box is slightly wider and taller on Revised than on Unlimited. Alpha Beta Unlimited & both Collectors Edition use the smaller art box, While Arabian Nights and everything after (including Summer) use the larger art box.

However, I'm not sure if that info can be used to help identify the grey bordered double printed card.

Tav

snarke
Librarities Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:28 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Textless test prints

Post by snarke » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:44 pm

I was encouraged to drop by. :)

Edgar happened after I'd handed over the job of Production Manager to Tom Wanerstrand. However, I might be able to provide some clues. Magic cards were originally created in two layers. The border and artwork were a high resolution TIFF file. The type and symbols were an EPS that was overlaid on the TIFF. The textless 'test printing' cards look to me like the TIFF without the EPS.

I think that was about the time I was helping John Jordan with the foreign editions. The 'normal' production department was totally time-committed to the English editions, so when John came back with deals for Italian, French, German, et cetera, they didn't have anybody left to actually do the typesetting and layout. I was pulled back in because my 'old' system which the 'new' production department didn't understand and didn't want to use, could handle foreign characters with very little trouble, and was blazingly fast.

The "Test Printing" cards definitely didn't come from me. (a) I don't remember doing it. (b) I would never have used that font. My first thought was maybe Carta Mundi stamped that on them, but Carta Mundi wouldn't have normally had the TIFF files; somebody would have had to have burned film for them. So either John sent them TIFF files for them to image set, burn plates, and run test prints (which is possible), or they were created by the regular production department to do color/press-proofs before they had the typesetting done for the cards.

Somewhere along in there Wizards bought their own Agfa SelectSet imagesetter. The test printing might have been part of a process to figure out if their new imagesetter was making film that looked right.

User avatar
dragsamou
Administrator
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Paris

Re: Textless test prints

Post by dragsamou » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:49 pm

snarke wrote:I was encouraged to drop by. :)

Edgar happened after I'd handed over the job of Production Manager to Tom Wanerstrand. However, I might be able to provide some clues. Magic cards were originally created in two layers. The border and artwork were a high resolution TIFF file. The type and symbols were an EPS that was overlaid on the TIFF. The textless 'test printing' cards look to me like the TIFF without the EPS.

I think that was about the time I was helping John Jordan with the foreign editions. The 'normal' production department was totally time-committed to the English editions, so when John came back with deals for Italian, French, German, et cetera, they didn't have anybody left to actually do the typesetting and layout. I was pulled back in because my 'old' system which the 'new' production department didn't understand and didn't want to use, could handle foreign characters with very little trouble, and was blazingly fast.

The "Test Printing" cards definitely didn't come from me. (a) I don't remember doing it. (b) I would never have used that font. My first thought was maybe Carta Mundi stamped that on them, but Carta Mundi wouldn't have normally had the TIFF files; somebody would have had to have burned film for them. So either John sent them TIFF files for them to image set, burn plates, and run test prints (which is possible), or they were created by the regular production department to do color/press-proofs before they had the typesetting done for the cards.

Somewhere along in there Wizards bought their own Agfa SelectSet imagesetter. The test printing might have been part of a process to figure out if their new imagesetter was making film that looked right.
Thanks Dave :wink: It's so hard to get answers from People that were in charge back in the days. And with All those Test Prints coming out from Old WOTC employees or else recently, I try with the help of Members to find out precisely for which Edition or extension, they were aimed for....So much mystery, and unlogical situations #-o
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest