Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?
Moderators: cataclysm80, hammr7, l0qii, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp
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hammr7
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I see two problems with everything stated so far:
1. What's in it for Wizards? Remember that the company doesn't make an extra penny off a $100 rare as opposed to a $0.10 rare. They never made $1,000 on a Black Lotus, or $200 of a Tabernacle.
I don't know exactly how Wizards actually phrased the non-reprint portion of their restricted list, but from what I have heard they did leave themselves some loopholes. So assuming that reprints of restricted cards aren't a violation of expressed or implied contract law; we need to deal with ethical considerations. And Wizards highest responsibility to its stakeholders is the responsibility to its shareholders. For better or worse, that is what Capitalism is all about.
The goal of Wizards is to produce new products that sell well. This is how they generate sales and earn a profit. If throwing in an original Lotus as a chase card makes them lots more sales (or a higher per-pack price) that is wonderful. If reprinting a small or large number of old cards reignites interest or generates a ton of new players that all the better. If Wizards does something that ruins the whole game, then that is bad, but if they do something that upsets some vintage players who aren't buying new product any more, while inspiring 10 times as many new players, then they probably have to go with it.
2. Even with reprints, the value of old original cards will not vary much for true collectors. I can even make the argument that more "collectors" will be inspired to collect if reprints do cause a temporary softening in prices. I went over to the collector side in part because of a loss of local players and because of professional and family commitments. But an equally large reason was the much lower cost of cards that had rotated out of Type 2. "Players" were abandoning everything from playsets of key cards to full sets after they were two or three years old. And I was able to pick up large collections quite cheaply when Wizards came out with a string of mediocre sets (Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age, Chronicles, etc.), which drove a lot of original players out but paved the way for a much larger universe of players with more exciting later sets. I think one of the reasons why their aren't more true collectors of Magic cards is that there is so much competition for key cards from players. If really expensive cards are reprinted on a restricted basis (and not overwhelmingly, like Underworld Dreams was), I can see it opening up true collecting of the new card (in a set or as a promo) and the original set (which now sees it's key card at a slightly more reasonable price).
As an aside, I don't see Legacy as anywhere near as expensive as Type 2. In Legacy, you buy your "staple" deck cards once, then modify just once in a while, and just a few cards at a time. In Type 2 you are either buying multiple boxes of each new product to stay ahead of the curve (you are the best kind of Wizards customer), or you are reacting to new decks by buying playsets of whatever you need on the secondary market as new decks are unveiled. If you are always forced to buy new cards just to keep pace, then you end up spending much more over the long haul.
As an ending statement, I have little concern for speculators. I have seen their herd mentality destroy too many other areas of collectibles. These are the individuals who are only in it for the short-term money, and are more than willing to walk away once that easy money is no longer available.
Too many of these speculators cross the line to unethical behavior as they try and separate uninformed players and collectors from valuable cards. This is especially true in dealing with minors. It is one thing to purchase cards cheaply from a dealer because you expect they will rise in value. Dealers are in the business of reselling cards at posted prices. It is entirely another to offer a supposedly "equal" trade or supposedly "fair value" purchase from some clueless 13 year old. Such speculators deserve to get burned at least once in a while.
1. What's in it for Wizards? Remember that the company doesn't make an extra penny off a $100 rare as opposed to a $0.10 rare. They never made $1,000 on a Black Lotus, or $200 of a Tabernacle.
I don't know exactly how Wizards actually phrased the non-reprint portion of their restricted list, but from what I have heard they did leave themselves some loopholes. So assuming that reprints of restricted cards aren't a violation of expressed or implied contract law; we need to deal with ethical considerations. And Wizards highest responsibility to its stakeholders is the responsibility to its shareholders. For better or worse, that is what Capitalism is all about.
The goal of Wizards is to produce new products that sell well. This is how they generate sales and earn a profit. If throwing in an original Lotus as a chase card makes them lots more sales (or a higher per-pack price) that is wonderful. If reprinting a small or large number of old cards reignites interest or generates a ton of new players that all the better. If Wizards does something that ruins the whole game, then that is bad, but if they do something that upsets some vintage players who aren't buying new product any more, while inspiring 10 times as many new players, then they probably have to go with it.
2. Even with reprints, the value of old original cards will not vary much for true collectors. I can even make the argument that more "collectors" will be inspired to collect if reprints do cause a temporary softening in prices. I went over to the collector side in part because of a loss of local players and because of professional and family commitments. But an equally large reason was the much lower cost of cards that had rotated out of Type 2. "Players" were abandoning everything from playsets of key cards to full sets after they were two or three years old. And I was able to pick up large collections quite cheaply when Wizards came out with a string of mediocre sets (Fallen Empires, Homelands, Ice Age, Chronicles, etc.), which drove a lot of original players out but paved the way for a much larger universe of players with more exciting later sets. I think one of the reasons why their aren't more true collectors of Magic cards is that there is so much competition for key cards from players. If really expensive cards are reprinted on a restricted basis (and not overwhelmingly, like Underworld Dreams was), I can see it opening up true collecting of the new card (in a set or as a promo) and the original set (which now sees it's key card at a slightly more reasonable price).
As an aside, I don't see Legacy as anywhere near as expensive as Type 2. In Legacy, you buy your "staple" deck cards once, then modify just once in a while, and just a few cards at a time. In Type 2 you are either buying multiple boxes of each new product to stay ahead of the curve (you are the best kind of Wizards customer), or you are reacting to new decks by buying playsets of whatever you need on the secondary market as new decks are unveiled. If you are always forced to buy new cards just to keep pace, then you end up spending much more over the long haul.
As an ending statement, I have little concern for speculators. I have seen their herd mentality destroy too many other areas of collectibles. These are the individuals who are only in it for the short-term money, and are more than willing to walk away once that easy money is no longer available.
Too many of these speculators cross the line to unethical behavior as they try and separate uninformed players and collectors from valuable cards. This is especially true in dealing with minors. It is one thing to purchase cards cheaply from a dealer because you expect they will rise in value. Dealers are in the business of reselling cards at posted prices. It is entirely another to offer a supposedly "equal" trade or supposedly "fair value" purchase from some clueless 13 year old. Such speculators deserve to get burned at least once in a while.
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notsofasteddie
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mystical_tutor
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mystical_tutor
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Well, you sure write a heck of a lot better than I do. Well put--even the parts I don't agree with.
Something you missed in the "everything stated so far".
1) Proxies: Allowing players to use proxies WOULD hurt WotC a lot more than the secondary market--though both would be affected.
From a judging point of view proxies would be an absolute nightmare depending on how the proxy was made.
Gary
Something you missed in the "everything stated so far".
1) Proxies: Allowing players to use proxies WOULD hurt WotC a lot more than the secondary market--though both would be affected.
From a judging point of view proxies would be an absolute nightmare depending on how the proxy was made.
Your point is often forgotten and I'm glad you brought us back to it. Without a good bottom line there won't be any Magic to play and collecting, though more definitive, will be easier---a LOT easier.hammr7 wrote:I see two problems with everything stated so far:
1. What's in it for Wizards?
..., but if they do something that upsets some vintage players who aren't buying new product any more, while inspiring 10 times as many new players, then they probably have to go with it.
Reprints of any kind would not be original cards and would be just another "set" for collectors to collect. A reprinted Time Walk will never fill the slot in an Alpha. Beta or UL set. It would only fill a slot in the "reprint set". The only people the reprinted TW would "help" would be the players that wanted to use one--then, depending on the amount printed, the price might rise to a prohibited level anyway. Again; Dual Lands and Time Walks will never be printed as commons.hammr7 wrote:2. Even with reprints, the value of old original cards will not vary much for true collectors.
Amen. True magic players only play limited.... <said while crawling into my bomb shelter> JK.hammr7 wrote:As an aside, I don't see Legacy as anywhere near as expensive as Type 2.
I do apologize. In my previous statements please replace "speculators" with "investors" as I was not talking about the above described persons who’s ilk I toughly detest. There are true investors, however, and they were the ones I was talking about (the fellow putting together a PSA 10 Alpha set in hopes it will pay for their daughters college education).hammr7 wrote:As an ending statement, I have little concern for speculators. I have seen their herd mentality destroy too many other areas of collectibles. These are the individuals who are only in it for the short-term money, and are more than willing to walk away once that easy money is no longer available.
Too many of these speculators cross the line to unethical behavior as they try and separate uninformed players and collectors from valuable cards.
Gary
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mystical_tutor
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Well we can stop speculating. This sound QUITE definitive:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... er/031810a
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/articl ... rintpolicy
(at least for now <grin>)
Gary
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... er/031810a
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/articl ... rintpolicy
(at least for now <grin>)
Gary
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mystical_tutor
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I'm sorry Mr. C but I can not accept that a "majority" of magic players are unhappy with the list or the policy. The majority of them (at least where I live) don't even care.Mr.C wrote:Good for collectors, horrible for Legacy. At least someone is happy, but it is apparent the majority is quite unhappy.
I suspect that a number of Legacy players are quite happy about it. They have the cards and others don't--and they like that. In addition, their playing investment has been protected and I am sure that does not bring a tear to their collective eye.
Gary
Dunno, man, maybe it was the fact that when I was in Brazil I was obscenely overpaying for T1/1.5 cards (think duals for $30 in 2004), that I just didn't see it as an 'investment'. Maybe I had a different idea of it from the start :)mystical_tutor wrote:I'm sorry Mr. C but I can not accept that a "majority" of magic players are unhappy with the list or the policy. The majority of them (at least where I live) don't even care.Mr.C wrote:Good for collectors, horrible for Legacy. At least someone is happy, but it is apparent the majority is quite unhappy.
I suspect that a number of Legacy players are quite happy about it. They have the cards and others don't--and they like that. In addition, their playing investment has been protected and I am sure that does not bring a tear to their collective eye.
Gary
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mystical_tutor
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Which is certainly understandable. Paying a hord of money for any recreational activity sure takes a lot of the fun out of it.Mr.C wrote:Dunno, man, maybe it was the fact that when I was in Brazil I was obscenely overpaying for T1/1.5 cards (think duals for $30 in 2004), that I just didn't see it as an 'investment'. Maybe I had a different idea of it from the start :)
Here is hopeing you can enjoy the game in a format that challenges you but doesn't send you to the poor house--one of the reasons I LOVE casual Magic.
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.
Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.
Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.
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Gravemind123
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Most Legacy players seem to be against it because they are afraid the format is going to stagnate with new players being unable to afford entrance because the price will spike on things like dual lands. Whether or not they are right remains to be seen, but prices are getting too high now. Although things aren't that expensive, it is enough that it is going to get hard to make casual players or players of other formats want to switch over to Legacy as well.
On the other hand I do like that there are certain cards that won't be reprinted, Library, Bazaar, Time Vault and other old very rare collectible things should stay in their original form only. I just with the dual lands had been reprinted in some way, since they have no substitute and are the backbone of Legacy. The problem is finding a way to reprint them where it doesn't drop the price of the old ones or at least only tanks the price of revised ones without effecting alpha/beta/FBB so that people who have collected those don't lose too much money.
On the other hand I do like that there are certain cards that won't be reprinted, Library, Bazaar, Time Vault and other old very rare collectible things should stay in their original form only. I just with the dual lands had been reprinted in some way, since they have no substitute and are the backbone of Legacy. The problem is finding a way to reprint them where it doesn't drop the price of the old ones or at least only tanks the price of revised ones without effecting alpha/beta/FBB so that people who have collected those don't lose too much money.
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Ertai's Familiar
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Royal Ass.
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Magic overall is becoming a much more expensive game to play. Even Type 2 is more expensive than it used to be. I think the demographic is probably changing of what the player base is like - ie more rich kids.
I own power cards, a playset of duals, Type 1 and legacy staples etc. I would be very happy to see these cards reprinted in a responsible manner to get more people playing these formats. And I don't think it would affect the price of my old cards. Why is a beta Underground Sea worth more than a Beta Ancestral?? Seems crazy doesn't it? It's because Underground is Legacy legal and Ancestral is not. If they reprinted power and Type one's player base quadrupled, I guarantee that my Beta Ancestral would probably double in price cause people want the pimp version in their deck.
I really don't understand the "Collectors'" argument that the price of their cards would plummet. Give me a break. This has been disproven with all the FTV sets and the popularty of the legacy format skyrocketing the price of A/B cards printed in Revised. My Alpha Berserk and Beta Sol Ring have not lost any value. They have gained value from Legacy and EDH popularity.
More people playing a format/card = Card price goes up
Making cards available = More people playing and wanting pimp version
Thus Making cards available = Pimp version of Card prices go up.
Why don't the all mighty "Collectors" get this????
I really hope that Wizards redacts on their stupid reprint policy. Hopefully if the new online MED 4 set gets people interested in Type 1 more people will demand the paper version of teh card and an abolition of Wizard's mistake to close the reprint loophole.
I own power cards, a playset of duals, Type 1 and legacy staples etc. I would be very happy to see these cards reprinted in a responsible manner to get more people playing these formats. And I don't think it would affect the price of my old cards. Why is a beta Underground Sea worth more than a Beta Ancestral?? Seems crazy doesn't it? It's because Underground is Legacy legal and Ancestral is not. If they reprinted power and Type one's player base quadrupled, I guarantee that my Beta Ancestral would probably double in price cause people want the pimp version in their deck.
I really don't understand the "Collectors'" argument that the price of their cards would plummet. Give me a break. This has been disproven with all the FTV sets and the popularty of the legacy format skyrocketing the price of A/B cards printed in Revised. My Alpha Berserk and Beta Sol Ring have not lost any value. They have gained value from Legacy and EDH popularity.
More people playing a format/card = Card price goes up
Making cards available = More people playing and wanting pimp version
Thus Making cards available = Pimp version of Card prices go up.
Why don't the all mighty "Collectors" get this????
I really hope that Wizards redacts on their stupid reprint policy. Hopefully if the new online MED 4 set gets people interested in Type 1 more people will demand the paper version of teh card and an abolition of Wizard's mistake to close the reprint loophole.
Ci sono cose che succedono ai vivi non ai morti.
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Ertai's Familiar
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