Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?

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Royal Ass.
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Post by Royal Ass. » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:03 am

Why did you just quote yourself? Am I missing something?
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Post by ouallada » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:35 am

That his point is about the blame game with regards to the reserved list, but rather that Legacy is STILL extremely popular despite the reserved list, which kinda flies against the sky falling down on Legacy.

That said, the argument that "collectors" have brought the buttressing of the reserved list down on all our heads because they refuse to lose money is ridiculous, seeing as hardly anyone I've seen contributing to the discussion actually uses that as an argument. Most people reason along the lines of Wizards keeping its promises (which is a separate issue from using this as a cause for maintaining collection values), that Legacy staples are in far higher quantities than Vintage and has proven to be a much more accessible format, and so on. You want the Reserved list abolished. Yeah, got the memo. I want that as well, in some form or another. Difference is I don't see the need to make an intellectually dishonest argument to get my point across and place blame on a largely imaginary baddie.

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Post by Royal Ass. » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:19 pm

That fact that Legacy is popular despite the reserved list doesn't have anything to do with my post. Regardless, the Legacy AND Vintage staples are very expensive and not as accessible as they should be for a long term healthy format. Look at Vintage.

Also I had just read the whole thread before I posted my comment and there were arguments from collectors. There was even a threatened class action law suit (as a lawyer I found this funny). I have read other threads on other forums with similar posts from collectors complaining that it would de-value their collection. I don't think I was setting up a straw man argument or being intellectually dishonest.

The only argument for maintaining the reserved list as you claim, is "Wizards keeping a promise." That's a joke. So we are going to prevent the expansion and accessibility of two historic Magic formats because of a poor decision made by Wizards 15 years ago after a bunch of people bitched about their elder dragons getting printed in Chronicals? Is the principle of "keeping a promise" that important to some people? How about the principle of not blindly adhering to poorly made past decisions? That's a principle I can get behind.

The thing that annoys me the most was Wizard's recent decision to close the reprint loophole and explicitly state that they would never abandon the reserved list. Anyone who thinks this is about "keeping a promise" is missing something. It's about profit and keeping people playing Type 2 and constantly re-buying cards.
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Post by ouallada » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:04 pm

It doesn't have anything to do with your post. It has, however, something to do with the poster you referred to and the sentiment of the thread in general.
Also I had just read the whole thread before I posted my comment and there were arguments from collectors. There was even a threatened class action law suit (as a lawyer I found this funny). I have read other threads on other forums with similar posts from collectors complaining that it would de-value their collection. I don't think I was setting up a straw man argument or being intellectually dishonest.
So your definition of a collector is someone who doesn't agree that reprints are the only way to allow pseudo entry to a format? Because that's certainly what I'm seeing here. As for the lawsuit, as a logical person I find it funny that you even paid any attention to it.

I repeat. A small selection of posts over a very large sample makes it a legitimate argument that the reserved list changes were due to collectors, and that these number of posts represent the collective voice? That, obviously, is where the intellectual dishonesty comes from. Of course, you could also show me how the arguments of these people have definitively made Wizards act the way they did. When you can't, get off your high horse. Plenty of people here are fine with reprints, done judiciously. That you paint everyone with the same brush of selfishness is frankly quite irritating.
The only argument for maintaining the reserved list as you claim, is "Wizards keeping a promise."
I stated that it was likely part of the reasoning Wizards used. Not the only. Big difference there.
Is the principle of "keeping a promise" that important to some people?
Erm, possibly? Any company that makes a promise is accountable for its failure to keep that promise in the future. In this case, it was a silly promise and should have been circumvented to a degree at least for certain staples. To not understand why a company seeks to keep its promises is just silly.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:25 am

Royal Ass. wrote: There was even a threatened class action law suit (as a lawyer I found this funny).
And just why shouldn’t I try to start a class action suit for breach of contract? I have seen suits for much less substantial reasons.
Royal Ass. wrote: I have read other threads on other forums with similar posts from collectors complaining that it would de-value their collection.
And your point is? Are you saying it would not devalue their collections or are you saying you don’t care that it does. That would lead to the idea that your play enjoyment is more important to you than it is to preserve someone’s investment.

I see where you are coming from. “I want my play format—screw the people that trusted the company.”
Royal Ass. wrote: The only argument for maintaining the reserved list as you claim, is "Wizards keeping a promise." That's a joke.
Lets see, you are saying it is a joke for a corporation to keep a promise that people have trusted in and banked on?

Well, if you’re a lawyer, I guess that does fit. Doesn’t work at all for me though.
Royal Ass. wrote: So we are going to prevent the expansion and accessibility of two historic Magic formats because of a poor decision made by Wizards 15 years ago after a bunch of people bitched about their elder dragons getting printed in Chronicals [sic.]?


You argue against yourself—your example is beautiful and right on. Reprinting the Elder dragons in Chronicles had a direct negative impact on the value of the Legend dragons—just as reprinting duel lands would have the same impact on the present value of such.

Thus, that it was a poor decision is just your opinion. My opinion is that it was a good decision.
Royal Ass. wrote: Is the principle of "keeping a promise" that important to some people?
Well your comments certainly show that it is not important to at least one person. I must remember that if you ever promise me anything.
Royal Ass. wrote: How about the principle of not blindly adhering to poorly made past decisions? That's a principle I can get behind.
For sure, that is the first time I have ever heard of someone advocating that as a principle. I can see where a divorce lawyer could make good use of it though. If keeping ones word is a bad thing, I guess I'm just bad as I consider it mighty important.

I think your comment about profits resulting from people playing type II is a whopping big Red Herring. People that play Standard are devoted to it and will keep playing it no matter what other formats are available (at least until their egos are so shattered that they have to find another pond to swim in).

I didn’t see you relating your argument to any of the principles I hold important, such as honor, integrity, “just because it is the right thing to do”, or trust. Because your argument has no basis in moral integrity and, in fact, makes light of such I must relegate it to useless rhetoric.

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Post by Royal Ass. » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:45 pm

1. I'm curious how heavily the collectors have relied on the Reprint policy in how they invest in and manager their magic collections. Can you honestly tell me that you have made significant decisions in your purchasing and collecting of cards based on what cards are on the Reserved List? (btw, this is where the legal issue would lie)

2. If certain Legacy and Vintage staples were reprinted in a responsible manner as Mythics or Rares or whatever, do you really think it would significantly alter the price of the original Alpha/Beta/Unl/Rev versions of these cards? (Empirically this has not been the case with the examples that do exist such as Berserk, Sol Ring, Wheel of Fortune, Demonic Tutor etc)

3. What if the reprinting of these cards made the format more accessible, increasing player numbers and thus driving up the demand and price of the older cards? Do you agree that this is at least a possibility?

4. The "Collectors" seem to be very concerned about their financial investment in their reserved list cards. Are the "collectors" at all concerned with the investment that "players" have in their cards - people like me who own power etc and get value out of their cards not because of the monetary value attached to them but because they actually enjoy playing the game of magic - People who enjoy playing the game because of the intellectual and social aspects of it? Believe me I am happy that my moxes and lotus are worth lots of money but I would much rather there be a thriving Vintage scene so that I can play the cards. Why is the "collectors" financial interest more important than the "players'" interest in using the cards for what they were designed for - playing MTG?

Lastly I will say that I think that the whole "collector" argument is flawed because it assumes that abolishing the reserved list means that cards will be reprinted irresponsibly and or that reprinting necessarily means that ABU versions of the cards will drop significantly in value. I actually think it is more likely the opposite - that responsible reprinting will increase interest in the older formats and cards will go up, just like how the Start City series increased interest in Legacy and that's why a Beta Underground is worth more than an Ancestral. The "collectors" must might actually be advocating for a policy that hurts them financially.


PS. I apologize if I cam off as overly aggressive in my earlier posts. I was just ranting. I don't take these discussions personally. I'm just trying to understand all sides of the issue.
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Post by markers » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:59 am

Ah, the infinite reprint discussion. I am one of these evil collectors.

I am against the reprint of anything on the list. The list was created after the Chronicles-debacle and possibly saved the game back then.

And let's be frank...People don't want reprints of the original laces, Wood Elemental or Master of the Hunt. They want the duals. And only the duals.

Now, how should this be done?

- Include the 10 duals in a T2-legal set as mythics? Do you want to kill T2 and Extended? If yes, that is the way to do it. T2 where everybody plays at least 3 colors (without drawback) is not really what the game needs.

- A special Promo (be it Judge or FTV or whatever)...how many should be produced? 5'000? 10'000? Price impact none (remember there are about 400k - 500k per dual around). Every seen a $500 promo...It would be the foil Underground Sea...Because EVERYONE would want one. Hell, I have around 80 duals and I would want at least a set of these duals.

and finally third: A Chronicles like set that is not T2 legal...Why would WOTC want to print something like that? They make money from selling sets yes. Sets that can be played in all formats. Why should one buy pack from a T2-set with inferior cards if he can get the real super duals from a that other set.

Legacy is the cheapest format there is. Just skip Standard for a year and buy duals with the money and you're set. I really don't see the problem there.
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Post by Alphafoil » Fri May 09, 2014 3:26 pm

yawg07 wrote:I'm not including pimped out decks as entry cost to a format.

Have you at all noticed the prices of Dual Lands, Wastelands, Tabernacles, Moats, Tarmogoyfs, Force of Wills, Polluted Deltas, Loyal Retainers, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void, or Dark Confidant lately?
Not all of these things are on the reserve list obviously, but I'm just speaking for Legacy as a whole.

Duals are all $30+ now, with NM/NM- Seas being $60+
Wastelands are up from their normal $8 to being up and above $20
Tabernacle exploded from $100 to $250, along with Moat going from $75 to $160
Tarmogoyf and Force of Will are staples in like everything, Goyfs are at an ABSURD $80+ and FoWs are climbing the $30-40 range.
Polluted Delta is $20+, Retainers are $80, Survivals are $20, Chalices? $15, Bobs as well $15-20
Other stuff like City of Traitors are at like $15, and it just goes on and on.

Even small stuff, Tops 6, Counterbalance 5, Vials 8, etc etc etc

Legacy is getting VERY expensive, everything is climbing fast.
Wizards decided to recognize it as a 'real' format by giving us two GPs this year.
Well now everything is a zillion dollars and people can't really get into the format because of high entry cost.

If they print WB duals in new frame, without the cool textbox, and you QUIT MAGIC, something is wrong.
Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I find this kind of replies very interesting to study.

4 years ago, as you can see, some people were already saying that Legacy cards prices were too high. They already thought that the end was near. Now prices are about 2 to 5 higher than those quoted. People still complain. More than those days. But Legacy is still played.

I wonder where's the limit. Demand is only partially elastic. There's some people that won't start playing/will sell their collection if prices reach X, while others will pay anything to play/won't sell no matter the prices. Some may even be attracted to the format because it's expensive (I have read in some forums that there's people that likes Legacy being expensive, so they don't have to play with new players that don't know the rules...).

At the same time, in that mix, because of the Reprint Policy and Magic's good health, paying any price seems justified. "Reserved cards prices can just go up". It may sound like it's a bubble.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri May 09, 2014 10:56 pm

It is worth a good laugh to go back and read old price lists. Not just for the P9 and duels but for the ups and downs.

I remember throwing some cards I never used into a box just to have a play set of them for my completionist fix. Lets see, 4 Bazaar of Baghdad, 4 Wastelands, 4 (why 4? it is legendary, you can only use one) Karakas, etc....

I have an old Dulest (#2? #3?) that was the only price list Dulest every printed and the BL was an outrageous $25 or $50 (in Korea atm and can't check--but you get the picture).

This debate will never be answered until the list is trashed, if it is, and when that happens a new one will start......

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Post by l0qii » Sat May 10, 2014 9:17 am

markers wrote:The list was created after the Chronicles-debacle and possibly saved the game back then.
This is really the the core of the reprint controversy, and is the truth. WotC haphazardly created a reprint set for the player masses in large quantities, and thumbed their nose at the collectors, and it almost killed them. That's not an exaggeration.

In some ways the policy is a promise to themselves, more than to the rest of us, to not repeat such a stupid decision. They now have to think very hard about how they reprint an old staple, and in what quantity. This self imposed barrier has worked out quite well, as none of the reprints they've pulled off since have had any effect nearly as devastating to their business as Chronicles had.

It's been noted that reprints in limited quantities (as promos or in box sets) has not had much impact on the value or original printings. This is true (although it may reign in runaway price spikes). An overhaul of the reprint policy that allows duals and power to be released this way is probably not a bad idea. Getting rid of the reprint policy entirely probably is a bad idea.

Edit: I speak as someone who has been primarily a collector, and is not worried about the value of his collection dropping due to any short run reprints

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Post by ouallada » Tue May 13, 2014 10:41 am

Honestly, $2000 manabases for legacy decks isn't a good thing.

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Post by Alphafoil » Tue May 13, 2014 10:55 am

ouallada wrote:Honestly, $2000 manabases for legacy decks isn't a good thing.
Why is $2000 too much? Why $2000 instead of $20 000 or $200? People were already complaining when they costed 1/3 that. As long as people are willing to pay... As long as lots of players consider it as some kind of investment that they can also use to play...

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Post by ouallada » Tue May 13, 2014 5:46 pm

I don't want to confuse the ontology of that statement with its interpretation and exactness. I'm not saying $2000 is the number that dilineates okay vs too much. You can pick whatever number makes sense for a game vs whatever number is too much and decide where the cookie crumbles on your own. I think $2000 is within the region where it is unhealthy, but I don't really want to define where that region starts and ends.

I don't think it is healthy for legacy because while I feel price protection is important, there are extents past which measures need to be taken. Let's create a hypothetical situation. All existing cards are outclassed in a way that the buy-in for legacy were $500000 in present day value -- and those are cards you will need to buy into, ie which you do not have now. Would you be okay with that as a format? If the answer is yes, then there is nothing to discuss -- we simply have different ideas. If the answer is no, then things get interesting.

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Post by Alphafoil » Tue May 13, 2014 6:28 pm

ouallada wrote:I don't want to confuse the ontology of that statement with its interpretation and exactness. I'm not saying $2000 is the number that dilineates okay vs too much. You can pick whatever number makes sense for a game vs whatever number is too much and decide where the cookie crumbles on your own. I think $2000 is within the region where it is unhealthy, but I don't really want to define where that region starts and ends.

I don't think it is healthy for legacy because while I feel price protection is important, there are extents past which measures need to be taken. Let's create a hypothetical situation. All existing cards are outclassed in a way that the buy-in for legacy were $500000 in present day value -- and those are cards you will need to buy into, ie which you do not have now. Would you be okay with that as a format? If the answer is yes, then there is nothing to discuss -- we simply have different ideas. If the answer is no, then things get interesting.
What do you mean with "unhealthy"?

The buy-in for Legacy could be $500 000 right now without a change in supply nor the amount of players. That would happen if thousands of multimillionaires for some reason started playing that Magic format. Obviously it would no longer be played in random stores, but in places with lots of security, maybe in private clubs. It would be something similar to very high stakes poker.

The buy-in could also reach that price in the very very long term, as supply keeps decreasing because of lost and destroyed cards. How much would be the buy-in for a format where only Summer Magic cards are allowed?

What I mean is that as long as people are willing to pay money for cardboard, no price is too high nor too low. It's as "absurd" to pay $50 for a Black Lotus in 1994, like mystical_tutor said, as paying $50 000 in 2030. It's still a piece of cardboard, with subjective value.

If Legacy prices keep increasing, we'll just see a change in the type of people that play it, which I don't think is something intrinsically good or bad.

Players that want more people playing the format should care about the format being promoted and the supply of cards increased. Prices are another matter. The player base can increase while prices increase (as has happened).

I can imagine prices being a problem if you start worrying about using your cards because they are too valuable. Or about being robbed. For example, some years ago I had no problem playing with my Alpha P9, but I wouldn't do that nowadays.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Wed May 14, 2014 12:49 am

I think the money is a driver not a deterrent.

Whenever I have been to this type of event it is easy to notice that a segment of the players are there more for show and tell than to take home the playmat.

There is a considerable amount of price difference between the "pimped up" deck and one that is utility and Spartan. Yet there are always a large number of the pimp decks there. Now these people do that for only one reason, bragging rights. Some may even get double bragging rights if the win with a pimp deck but in any case, win or loose, they get to show off.

I think that some of those type people will keep the format going just to parade their affluence.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the Limited and Modern formats are both to rich for my blood--heck, even some Standard decks are that. But as long as there is a platform to show off status to gobs of people there are some that will pay the price (it is almost better than having a yacht).

Point being, if A/B duels and foil cards were banned, I think it would have very negative impact on the formats. More players? maybe, but the prestige would be gone and the rich kids would find some other way to strut their stuff (though modern has become very expensive without the first three).

If WotC ever decides to reprint in quantity the staples of modern (which are not on the non-reprint list). In one move they could make Modern a much less expensive format--with no backlash from collectors-only from the secondary market and those who already have the cards.

Will that happen? Maybe in a "from the vault".......
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