Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?

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Mr.C
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Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?

Post by Mr.C » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:34 am

I'm posting this more out of curiosity, as this is the realm of true collectors. If Wizards abolished the reserve list tomorrow, how would it impact you? Would you stop collecting because of that? How would this affect your perception of the company and the game?

Just curious :)

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wizard1
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Post by wizard1 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:20 am

I think the question should be IF they abolished the reserve list AND started re-printing cards from said list.

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Post by Mr.C » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:30 am

wizard1 wrote:I think the question should be IF they abolished the reserve list AND started re-printing cards from said list.
Assume so.

Then what?

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Post by wizard1 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:32 am

Mr.C wrote:
wizard1 wrote:I think the question should be IF they abolished the reserve list AND started re-printing cards from said list.
Assume so.

Then what?
Well my progression into magic was the following and im pretty sure its about the same with most players

1)Got into magic early on
2)Played a lot of magic with friends and went to lots of events
3)Still played but started collecting and aiming for the oh so familiar "I would like to one day own a black lotus or a piece of the p9"
4)Still playing. Collecting, trading and getting closer to P9 goal
5)Finally reaching P9 goal... HORRAY!!!! Now what. P9 is basically the highest you can go for mainstream collecting
6)Hmm... whats Summer (edgar)? Wow people actually value miscut misprinted cards?
7)Still play casually, beginning to thin out collection of mainstream cards and p9 to help fund new addiction of magic rarities.

That being said.... for me at least I keep a very limited catalog of standard magic now a days and have focused more on rarities. Most of the cards I still keep have sentimental value or were just cool cards from back in the day that you always wanted to have when you were playing early on (Juzam Djinn for eg).

Sure if they got rid of the list it would hurt values but at the end of the day I dont have my entire life savings invested in P9 or cards from the reserve list.

That being said im sure we've been told or have thought about the day the bottom falls out from under Magic...... we've heard it time and time again but it never happens. Yet we know that the risk is there. *shrugs*

Like most things in life, things change, old rules are amended, new rules are made. Regardless we will adapt. I still love the game, still love chasing after rarities. Its all in good fun and there's nothing they can do that can take away all the good memories and friends we've made along the way.


Phew! I think that's the longest response Ive ever written! lols

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Post by yawg07 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:44 pm

Well, they did finally admit and embrace the 'foil loophole' as it is called.
Wizards will be disregarding the reserve list on foils for Duel Decks and any special product (From the Vault)
Masticore's inclusion in FTV: Relics is proof of that, along with Negator in Phyrexia vs The Coalition.

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Post by ouallada » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:47 pm

Well, abolishing the reserve list isn't equal to a statement that every card previously on the list will be reprinted. I think that most people here would be okay, as the usual suspects that are being collected are alpha/beta sets, graded sets, summer, test prints, miscuts and various other rarities. I don't think any of them will be affected much by the mere possibility of reprinting.

As for myself, a lot of my cards are summer and test prints, as well as alpha/beta. I don't really have a monetary issue with reprints, although the risk is of course that the bottom of the mtg barrel falls away with careless reprinting. Killing the proverbial golden goose, so to speak. I don't think that will be happening anytime soon.

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Re: Possible changes in the reserve list - will they matter?

Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:39 am

Mr.C wrote:I'm posting this more out of curiosity, as this is the realm of true collectors. If Wizards abolished the reserve list tomorrow, how would it impact you? Would you stop collecting because of that? How would this affect your perception of the company and the game?

Just curious :)
I would consider it a serious crime and start/join in a class-action suite.

The potential to devalue cards that people are holding in trust based on their promise would be a serious ethical issue.

In protest, I would stop collecting the cards and playing the game (and TOing and judging etc.).
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Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

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Post by yawg07 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:53 am

I'm all for it, truly. If they make the entry cost lower for Legacy, I will applaud their efforts, and embrace an expanding player base.
Hows about some "Chronicles 2: This time it's GOOD!" ?

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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:17 am

yawg07 wrote:I'm all for it, truly. If they make the entry cost lower for Legacy, I will applaud their efforts, and embrace an expanding player base.
Hows about some "Chronicles 2: This time it's GOOD!" ?
Good for what? Most of the cards on the no reprint list are broken cards that really aren't "good". Take the pre-DCI decks that were just a matter of whoever wins the dice roll wins he game. As Richard pointed out to me, why bother buying the cards, just roll the dice.

My take is that the primary cost of Legacy and Vintage rests with those "pimp" decks with all foil Unhinged islands and foil whatevers. That kind of extravigance will never be mittigated by removing the reprint policy.

On the other hand, collectors and investors that have taken the company at it's word and invested in these cards would be hurt--in some cases badly--if the company went back on it's word.

Gary

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Post by yawg07 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:14 am

I'm not including pimped out decks as entry cost to a format.

Have you at all noticed the prices of Dual Lands, Wastelands, Tabernacles, Moats, Tarmogoyfs, Force of Wills, Polluted Deltas, Loyal Retainers, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void, or Dark Confidant lately?
Not all of these things are on the reserve list obviously, but I'm just speaking for Legacy as a whole.

Duals are all $30+ now, with NM/NM- Seas being $60+
Wastelands are up from their normal $8 to being up and above $20
Tabernacle exploded from $100 to $250, along with Moat going from $75 to $160
Tarmogoyf and Force of Will are staples in like everything, Goyfs are at an ABSURD $80+ and FoWs are climbing the $30-40 range.
Polluted Delta is $20+, Retainers are $80, Survivals are $20, Chalices? $15, Bobs as well $15-20
Other stuff like City of Traitors are at like $15, and it just goes on and on.

Even small stuff, Tops 6, Counterbalance 5, Vials 8, etc etc etc

Legacy is getting VERY expensive, everything is climbing fast.
Wizards decided to recognize it as a 'real' format by giving us two GPs this year.
Well now everything is a zillion dollars and people can't really get into the format because of high entry cost.

If they print WB duals in new frame, without the cool textbox, and you QUIT MAGIC, something is wrong.

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Post by ouallada » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:20 am

I agree on the issue of trust, ethics and accountability to stakeholders. However, the point that eternal, Legacy in particular as it is receiving sanctioned support as well as pushes from SCG, has a high cost of entry, proxies nonwithstanding. Blue is unquestionably the best colour in Legacy, and the constant rise in price of blue duals and complements like Force of Will and Tarmogoyf make it very difficult for someone to enter the format. This isn't even about marginal cards that have exploded in price like Tabernacles or p3k, but cards that pretty much must be owned to be able to play a competitive deck in legacy that isn't elves, burn, goblins or merfolk. Reprints that are not standard legal would solve that. Of course, no one is advocating for an all-out reprinting frenzy, but it honestly is difficult to argue for the long-term health of Legacy as a format if prices keep locking new entrants out.

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Post by jamesham » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:43 am

whatever happens, it needs to be managed well by wizards
they need to be open about what they are doing [which i don't think they have been so far] and ensure that they reprint correct - i.e. not flood the market with new versions of the duals
everything so far suggests that they are going to at least edit the reserve list and do some reprinting
the question is how will they do it and also how do they deal with the truly problematic cards that aren't on the list - i.e. tarmo and FOW
everyone is talking about legacy - and i agree the cost is restrictive to new players, but what about standard - i don't play it but i think the prices for cards [i.e. mythics that are required in playsets for decks] are pretty insane
Garfield recently commented that $20 for a card is OK but $50 is not - we regularly see cards hitting this price and they are of little value outside of this format and have a pretty short life because of the speed at which cards cycle out
anyway, change is on the way - i just hope it isn't too extreme
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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:39 pm

yawg07 wrote:Have you at all noticed the prices of Dual Lands, Wastelands, Tabernacles, Moats, Tarmogoyfs, Force of Wills, Polluted Deltas, Loyal Retainers, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void, or Dark Confidant lately?
Not all of these things are on the reserve list obviously, but I'm just speaking for Legacy as a whole.
And in my opinion, if you choose a format that the secondary market is using to sucker you into spending money--then pay your dues and stop wining about it.

Just because WotC has provided a format in which the big buck people can enjoy and play doesn't mean that a lot of hard work and meaningful investments should be flushed down the toilet just because a few others "wanta" play.

I'd really like to know just how many people would get into those high cost formats (in addition to the present high cost format of "Standard") if the cards were made available as compared to how many collectors/investors would be damaged by the same action.

You see (or maybe you don't) a key issue here is not making these cards available for everyone to have--don't kid yourself. The underlying plot is to print just enough that the secondary market could still get a good profit off of them and yet someone could say "see what we did for you players.". Does anyone really think that dual-lands would be printed as commons???????

Sorry if this sounds like too much of a rant but, darn it, for just once I'd like to see WotC rise about the clamor about "bottom lines" and do the "right thing" by keeping its word.

Gary

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Post by tap4black » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:53 pm

yawg07 wrote:Have you at all noticed the prices of Dual Lands, Wastelands, Tabernacles, Moats, Tarmogoyfs, Force of Wills, Polluted Deltas, Loyal Retainers, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void, or Dark Confidant lately?
Not all of these things are on the reserve list obviously, but I'm just speaking for Legacy as a whole.
And why do you feel so entitled that you should be able to play this format but choose not to because the free market is dictating higher prices than you can or want to afford?

I'd like to drive a $250,000 Ferrari but choose not to sell my house to pay for it so I drive a Ford. You can just as easily swap in other cards to a Legacy deck and be competitive, if you think not, your just being stubborn.
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Post by yawg07 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:07 pm

tap4black wrote:
yawg07 wrote:Have you at all noticed the prices of Dual Lands, Wastelands, Tabernacles, Moats, Tarmogoyfs, Force of Wills, Polluted Deltas, Loyal Retainers, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void, or Dark Confidant lately?
Not all of these things are on the reserve list obviously, but I'm just speaking for Legacy as a whole.
And why do you feel so entitled that you should be able to play this format but choose not to because the free market is dictating higher prices than you can or want to afford?

I'd like to drive a $250,000 Ferrari but choose not to sell my house to pay for it so I drive a Ford. You can just as easily swap in other cards to a Legacy deck and be competitive, if you think not, your just being stubborn.
I DO play Legacy, and I DO have the cards. I want MORE players in Legacy, and not ones playing shitty "budget decks" running sub par everything.
And don't kid yourself, there is no reasonable replacement for Tarmogoyf, Force of Will, Survival, Chalice, or Wasteland. Duals have replacements that are okay but the damage SUCKS.
Shit, there aren't "replacements" for most of the cards that are expensive. That is WHY they are expensive, people need them to play.
I'm just saying that reprinting a handful of this stuff so people can wedge into the format, is a good thing.

A paper Master's Edition or Chronicles 2 would be where it's at.

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