Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

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motorcitymagic

Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by motorcitymagic » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:35 am

This was posted over in the Trading forum, where we've been discussing the alternate 4th edition printing discovered by Dan Bock, and announced on MTGNews (http://www.mtgnews.com/story/988/1/1/A/).

The discussion has gotten so good, I thought it deserves its own topic!
fvzappa wrote:Any of you who live close to where I do (Cincinnati, Ohio) should keep your eyes peeled. There is a high concentration of these cards in my area. I find them often.

There is a place called Cincinnati Playing Card Co., and I have talked to a few former employees who say that those "gaming cards you have look awfully familiar." It is quite possible that they originated from there. I've never heard anything official- who produced them, or where, but I find MANY more locally than others I have talked to nationwide.
After reading his post, it reminded my of something I'd heard years ago. The United States Playing Card Co. (based in Cincinatti) was involved in the printing of the "Vampire: The Eternal Struggle" game and "Dark Sovereigns" expansion for WotC back in 1995 (same year as 4th edition).

Here is a news release that describes the V:TES printing by USPC:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=45 ... .cc.vt.edu

I strongly believe now that this is the "mystery company" that was the source of the alternate 4th printing. Was it some sort of test, a full production run, or an aborted project (ala "Edgar")? Who knows. As the MTGNews article also mentions, relations between WotC and USPC broke down shortly thereafter.

I own a large collection of Jyhad/V:TES cards, and I've compared them using a black-lite. The cards from the 1995 V:TES printing and the "Dark Sovereigns" expansion exhibit the exact same properties as the alt. 4th cards do. Cards from later V:TES expansions glow under UV, as normal Magics do.

Although the pictures below show the results, the similarity between the alt 4th and V:TES/DS cards under the black-lite is unmistakable when you look at them in person.

For reference:
A) Alternate 4th - Pit Scorpion - top left
B) normal 4th - Pit Scorpion - top right
C) Jyhad - Igo The Hungry - middle left
D) V:TES - Igo The Hungry - middle right
E) Dark Sovereigns - Kostantin - bottom left
F) Sabbat* - Gratiano - bottom right

* Sabbat was a later stand-alone "expansion" for V:TES.

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Thrond

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Thrond » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:14 am

Too bad your pics don't work...  :-[

GavinO

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by GavinO » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:25 am

So, the UV reactance of Vampire appears to match that of Summer 4th, while the effect seems absent in that last expansion (do we know if someone other than the printer for VTES printed it?)

Ralph Herold

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Ralph Herold » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:46 am

motorcitymagic: Excellent discovery! Your explanation sounds very reasonable in my opinion. Any objections?

dry_cereal

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by dry_cereal » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:27 am

I agree.  I hate to have a post with no real purpose, but you did a really great job with this.  private eye

l0qii

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by l0qii » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:17 pm

Incidently, back in April I picked up a fake Word of Command in a lot of Unlimited cards from a guy in the Chicago area. This Word of Command has the same UV protected layer on it. What is the likelyhood of there being a connection?

Tenacious_Dyl

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Tenacious_Dyl » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:52 pm

I looked through roughly 3,000 cards at a store in the Lansing/East Lansing area of Michigan, I have not found ONE of these cards. Perhaps, none got up North here? Or perhaps, someone has been looking before me ;-)

dry_cereal

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by dry_cereal » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:41 pm

ya, im pretty sure it's a regional thing.  God knows I've tried to find em.

sylvanstu

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by sylvanstu » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:08 am

After going through all of mine and finding 74 different ones I contacted a couple of my buddies who have a lot of 4th edition and asked if I could go through thiers and get theese cards and of coarse replace with normal and they said sure I have gone through one of theese guys 1000's of 4th ( he used to own his own card shop) and only found 1 a counterspell. at least I needed it so now I have 75 different. we were totally surprised he only had 1 I have maybe 500 4th and found 74.      ???

fvzappa

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by fvzappa » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:56 pm

Ah, so THAT's where this topic got moved to... I didn't know you made your own thread here.

Anyhow, I have quite a bit of Summer 4th, many out-of-towners don't have nearly the luck I do. And as I said before, there was a draft held in my area where the starter decks were all Alt. 4th edition. Two gentleman I knew back in '95 & still see nowadays brought me a bunch. One still had the starter box & his red/ green draft deck, which I traded for. I see nothing different w/ the starter box itself though.

The U.S. Playing card Co. is less than 1 hour from my place. And with what I discussed before, it'd take a lot to convince me that this company is NOT the source.

On average, I see maybe half a dozen Alt 4th cards a month appear in my local shop, in people's trade binders. Often times the ones who have been playing for several years will have them. Currently I own about 1,000 or so Alt 4th cards, & am getting more from a local collector soon. He has another 100-200 of them he picked up before he quit.

Oh yea, never did trade w/ anyone... still need more, I've got 201 different ones.

Annorax

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Annorax » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:31 pm

How can you distinguish these from standard 4th Edition cards without a blacklight?

rg

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by rg » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:56 pm

annorax wrote:How can you distinguish these from standard 4th Edition cards without a blacklight?
Please read the infos on magiclibrary  ;)
http://www.magiclibrary.net/rarities-al ... ition.html

motorcitymagic

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by motorcitymagic » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:00 pm

Ralph, this thread should not be deleted. While the site now mentions these items, there is additional information in this thread that isn't documented anywhere else. Please archive.

Cyberellium

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Cyberellium » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:46 pm

I second that.

And for the record I live in New Zealand and I have never bought any 4th packs off the internet and I found that I had a raise dead that was alt 4th.

Out of my 1000+ 4th cards that I had only 1.

Ralph Herold

Re: Source of alt. 4th (summer 4th)

Post by Ralph Herold » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:40 pm

motorcitymagic has agreed in the meanwhile to list the parts of the thread he wishes to be preserved. I will incorporate them into the website, provide a few days for a general approval, and then delete this thread.

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