Magic Library Community Project

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hammr7
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Post by hammr7 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:47 pm

This post has questioned whether I would be willing to be a project manager.

There are two main aspects of any possible project. The first is an interface with the artist or artists chosen to do the art. This role involves communicating our desires for the cards (or tokens, poster, or whatever) to the artist. This includes feedback on initial concepts and sketches. I offered my services if we end up utilizing my friend as the artist. I am not sure how effective I would be with other artists, especially if another forum member has a personal relationship with one or more of them. While certain aspects need to be handled in a business-like manner (costs, deadlines, type of product, etc.) the art itself will hopefully be a labor of love. Labors of love are much easier when interactions with the artist(s) are personal.

The other aspect involves turning the artwork into a finished product. I have fairly extensive experience with printing projects. And while I have never worked with cards, I don't see a major problem handling this part of the project.

As for financing, I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We need to decide what we want first. We need to consider all sorts of issues including: content of the cards or token set (we are doing that now), how many we want to produce (both numbers in a set and numbers of sets), desired sale price for the set, how much of a contribution for the "Library", etc. We can then look at the numbers and determine how much we can pay for an artist, and what kind of product we can offer (foil costs more, lower print runs cost more per set because of one-time setup charges). We may need a few iterations to find a happy balance between cost, quality, and offering size.

Once we do that, any required payments will be in stages. We will need to pay an artist (and confirm if the payment will be fixed fee or royalty). It may take a few iterations to get the artwork right (something artists often hate unless its a "labor of love"). People who know established Magic artists can confirm this. Until you get the artwork correct you can't even consider production.

After we get the artwork we will need to negotiate with a printer to get our final product. There are some areas of negotiation, but usually you look for the best pricing given a set of detailed specifications (card stock, card finish, run size, etc.) The bulk of the printing payment is normally upon receipt of the finished product (there would likely be some sort of deposit before the printing occurs).

As for "openness" or "secrecy", you have the choice of keeping everything public and letting all members contribute, or making major decisions secretly and risk not having everyone want the finished product. Once the project commences everyone doesn't need to know every detail. But if this is to truly be a community project, everyone should be involved in the initial decisions. I wouldn't worry too much about similar offerings from others. If the final product is good, then forum members will probably purchase much of what is produced.

But this brings me back to an earlier question. Do we want a project that raises money primarily from existing forum members, or one that raises money from the Magic community at large. If we want the latter, then we probably want to have a fairly large print run (at least relative to some of the recent "rarer" token runs).

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Post by rick21n » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:10 pm

hammr7 wrote: <snip>
But this brings me back to an earlier question. Do we want a project that raises money primarily from existing forum members, or one that raises money from the Magic community at large. If we want the latter, then we probably want to have a fairly large print run (at least relative to some of the recent "rarer" token runs).
</snip>
Hank et al,

About this post I would initially run a smaller run primarily for Rarities members to get our feet wet. Make 250-500 (#'d) sets of something and sell them to us then to whomever. If the product catches on we can move forward from there with a second printing of unnumbered sets. I just am hesitant that we lose the funds of any of our investors.

Beyond this specific question you seem to have a pretty decent handle on things.

(adding this .02 to my previous I am up to 4 cents on this topic. :D )

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:09 pm

Well Hank thanks for replying on my question.

Secondly, Ralph decided to call me, as he periodically does. He asked me to post on the forum what we spoke of as he has a one week hiatus before getting back into some time consuming things for school again.

We had another marathon talk as we often do every so often. Besides talking about various rarities items and the most recent card shipment I sent him, the topic of this project was our main conversation. Ralph thought it prudent to speak on the phone on this instead of a flurry of emails. I of course led the off on the questions. Starting off I wanted to hear what Ralph though of all the projects presented in this thread. He agreed that textless duals would be the best and coolest by far. So this project would have Ralph's buy-in. He also expressed an interest to get established M:TG artists to do the work if possible. He also liked the panorama idea for the reasons I posted, but of course giving Celebrindor idea credit.

The first concern Ralph had was to define if this project is a member's project or one actually endorsed by Magic Library. This is an important point, because anything we mass produce for a project will have to have something on the back. Blank backs would be tacky. If it is a member's prjoect, then nothing with Magic Library can be on the card. If it is a Magic Library project, then there should be some sort of logo on the card back. The logo used for the Neo-tokens was fine at the time, but Ralph desired getting the logo done he has been wanting for the site for a very long time. Ralph also expressed his interest not to use a rushed logo, but to get it done right so going forward he can use it as he sees fit. We talked about using the logo on swag of all types like t-shirts, hats, bags, playmats, etc. Just throwing possible ideas around. The main thing is that the logo would be used as the card back for the textless duals, if this is a Magic Library project. Ralph wants to set up a poll on the subject...which I will do on a new thread here shortly.

Regardless if this project is a member's only project or if it is will be a Magic Library product, the logo will be getting done. I had offered Ralph to take the reigns on the logo project, which he accepted. Without going into further detail on the logo, I will start a new thread for this sister project.

Ralph also wanted me to iterate that he does not want this dual land project halted, but that the logo project needs to be complete prior to the textless duals going to print. So while I work dilligently to get us a logo developed that Ralph will like, someone does need to take hold of the textless duals.

The only problem I see is that the logo and textless duals might strain the community's potential budget thinner. I had planned to make major financial contributions for the project, but after speaking with Ralph, the logo is paramount regardless of if it used in this project or not. As a result, my money is all going to the logo project, but Ralph wantes this logo to be community driven as well, so please so follow the logo thread and if you want and/or can help financially, please do so as both of these will cost quite a bit to get done.

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Post by hammr7 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:28 pm

The logo need not cost much money, depending upon how intricate Ralph wants it. I am not an artist, and would never want to be the person drawing creatures, still lifes, or landscapes. But I have more than a little experience with graphic design, including programs such as Adobe PageMaker, Illustrator, and Photoshop.

Typically Logos are created from such programs. Unless the logo is going to include fine art components (like creatures) or some intensive sort of calligraphy, the cost to design should be in hours rather than money. And if you create the logo as a PSD or BMP file it is transferable to virtually any size or application.

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Logo Art

Post by victorcamp » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:48 pm

When this was discussed before, Ralph liked the concept of this art I did for the Magic Madness card Encyclopedic Learning distributed by Souce Comics and Games. It started with a photo of a library in Dublin, Ireland (Trinity College, I think), with assorted added effects and pieces.

Image

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:55 pm

Hank: I see your point that the logo need not cost a lot, but Ralph wishes the logo to be art-centric. Details what he wants is in the logo thread. I specifically pointed out the new logo mtgsalvation has and he thought it to be too amateurish.

Victor: I recall your art post, but Ralph made a decision on the logo format and details can be found in the logo thread.

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pickle.69
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Post by pickle.69 » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:07 am

Hi All
sadly have no time at the moment but I am definetly willing to help in this project! This is going to be GREAT !
Collections needing help
Shivan Dragons http://beam.to/shivandragon
Alpha Dwarven Demo Team h: 5%
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... 9506#29506

normalbrains
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Post by normalbrains » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:03 am

im glad to see this project coming to a head. i dont see why the magic library logo would have to cost that much money that it would drain funds from the a set of cards that has ten times the artwork, plus printing, etc. perhaps someone on the boards could call in a favor, or maybe one of the magic artists that posts here will provide it for a reasonable cost.

one note: i welcome the magic library logo on the back of the set, but please lets NOT put "www.magiclibrary.net" on the cards. this always makes cards looks like merely advertisments for commercial sites, (which it is), and since this isnt a commerical site, theres no need to make the cards look cheap. ill go check the other related threads now.

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Post by mintcollector » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:26 pm

normalbrains wrote:im glad to see this project coming to a head. i dont see why the magic library logo would have to cost that much money that it would drain funds from the a set of cards that has ten times the artwork, plus printing, etc. perhaps someone on the boards could call in a favor, or maybe one of the magic artists that posts here will provide it for a reasonable cost.

one note: i welcome the magic library logo on the back of the set, but please lets NOT put "www.magiclibrary.net" on the cards. this always makes cards looks like merely advertisments for commercial sites, (which it is), and since this isnt a commerical site, theres no need to make the cards look cheap. ill go check the other related threads now.
Ok, since people are commenting on the logo project here versus the logo thread I will post a couple comments. First off, no www.magiclibrary.net will be on the logo, and I hope not the card. I agree this is comercialism at it's peak and pretty unatttractive.

Secondly.....Ralph wants the artowkr to be art-centric. To be exact, he is looking for a landscape piece does as a normal art piece would be done. So the logo is the custom art piece. Ralph's wishes are to simply have Magic Library overlaid in the sky portion of the image. For further details, please refer to the logo thread. Read it so there is an understanding and post comments on the project there please. Trying to keep these projects better organized in the threads for hammr7's sake.

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Post by Celebrindor » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:53 pm

I support a larger print run. As was mentioned previously, the per-set costs will be lower the more we make - if the art costs, say, $1000 (this is an example, i have no clue how much it will cost), if we sell 1000 sets, each set will only have $1 of art cost built into it, but if we make 500 sets, each set will have $2 of art cost in it. As far as printing goes, the most expensive part is setting up the plates and so forth - the actual printing is not that expensive past that point. This is why things like business cards, stationary, pamphlets, fliers, brochures and the like can have double or triple the amount printed for well less than double the cost. In other words, the more we print, the cheaper it will be (per unit) to print them. Also, printers often have minimum orders, we may be forced to produce more sets.

This brings up another issue that doesn't seem to be resolved: do we want to sell them mainly to members, or mainly to the public. I would think that selling them to the public is a great idea. (more on this in a minute).

As far as financing goes, my expectation is this: if I contribute $500 or $1000 (which I will be able to do if we don't need the financial input until mid to late September or early October; if we need it sooner, i will not be able to contribute nearly that much, if anything), i would then expect to make all that money back from sales of the cards, with any excess going one of two places: Ralph, for upkeep up the site, more server space, whatever, or a fund: if we make a bunch of extra money from this run of cards, we can set that money aside (in Ralph's care of course), and next time we want to make cards, we will already have the money set aside.

That said, I think selling them to the magic community at large is the way to go - there should be quite a demand for these - more so if we do them well. If we sell them to the community, we should easily be able to make back our money.

As far as the issue of design goes - there are a great many things we can do now. First off, if we simply replaced the 'Magic' logo with the 'Magic Library' logo (whatever it may be), could we get away with using the rest of the back of a standard magic card? i doubt it, but I thought it would be worth mentioning. Second, even before we get the art done, we can design the front of the cards, such as the frame and layout and so forth. Do we want to do something like the UH lands, or something like the textless spells? What font do we want to use? Do we need an artist to draw, or a graphic designer to render, the frames and borders? We can make these decisions before we even pick an artist or design the new logo, and by doing thus, keep the project fresh in everyone's mind while making the other decisions.

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Post by mintcollector » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:32 pm

I was thinking that the textless duals would be similar in layout to the Unhinged lands. You have a simple black border surrounding a full art pic. The card name would simply appear up as normal. Lands do not have any casting cost, so there is no need to worry about that part of the card. I am not sure if there are any restrictions regarding card font for the naming. Not even having the card font set we can easily reconstruct this if needed by scanning in any cards that contain the needed text. Would there be problems simply scanning in a Tundra for example and just using the exact font with a clear background so you can overlay it in the text box, or would another font be used like Unhinged did? Also to prevent any issues with card layout, the card text can be offset left in it's box. So imagine a Unhinged card, but just shift the text box left.

As far as the back is concerned, there may be many parts of the card back that are copyrighted. I have noticed all token makers have used custom backs. If I had to guess....this is for very good reason. To my knowledge only one card outside of M:TG was 'legally' made. It was the the wedding favor for a Pro Tour champ. They spoofed the M:TG card back. This card was featured in an old Scrye article. Don't recall the issue # or who did it exactly, but I just remember it being done. The difference here is that these wedding favors were gifts and not set to generate income, so custom backs may be needed. The boundaries of WOTC's trademarks really need to be explored. This might be a task for someone to pursue.

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Post by normalbrains » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:33 pm

rick21n wrote:
hammr7 wrote: <snip>
But this brings me back to an earlier question. Do we want a project that raises money primarily from existing forum members, or one that raises money from the Magic community at large. If we want the latter, then we probably want to have a fairly large print run (at least relative to some of the recent "rarer" token runs).
</snip>
Hank et al,

About this post I would initially run a smaller run primarily for Rarities members to get our feet wet. Make 250-500 (#'d) sets of something and sell them to us then to whomever. If the product catches on we can move forward from there with a second printing of unnumbered sets.

regarding who to sell to and how many to make, lets consider a few similar examples and evaluate. the neo-tokens "magic library" edition made 200 sets and did not sell out yet. i think this dual land set will have more demand than that set though for various reasons. the gamingetc p9 proxies made 5,000 sets. they also have paid advertisents in scrye and online sites. every online magic forum has multiple threads talking about them. the reaction has been generally positive to the final product and as of 2 weeks or so ago they had sold 40% of the print run (side note: wow $20,000). also, they had a great incentive plan to buy multiple sets (extra foils). they expect to sell out within 8 weeks. unless we are going to advertise, i think the print run would have to be substancially smaller than that. the plus side of doing dual lands is that 4x sets will have to be bought in order to have a playset. lets say we make 500 sets (plus foils). at $10 plus shipping a set, thats $5,000 which should more than cover the costs of the project. if we can keep the budget under 5 g's i think that is the perfect number as such a limited printing will add collector value and it would be hard not to sell out. as far as a possible second printing mentioned above, thats no good for the simple reason that some people will buy them partly or solely for collector value and any reprinting will undermine that.

Celebrindor wrote:I support a larger print run. As was mentioned previously, the per-set costs will be lower the more we make - if the art costs, say, $1000 (this is an example, i have no clue how much it will cost), if we sell 1000 sets, each set will only have $1 of art cost built into it, but if we make 500 sets, each set will have $2 of art cost in it. As far as printing goes, the most expensive part is setting up the plates and so forth - the actual printing is not that expensive past that point. This is why things like business cards, stationary, pamphlets, fliers, brochures and the like can have double or triple the amount printed for well less than double the cost. In other words, the more we print, the cheaper it will be (per unit) to print them. Also, printers often have minimum orders, we may be forced to produce more sets.

This brings up another issue that doesn't seem to be resolved: do we want to sell them mainly to members, or mainly to the public. I would think that selling them to the public is a great idea. (more on this in a minute).

As far as financing goes, my expectation is this: if I contribute $500 or $1000 (which I will be able to do if we don't need the financial input until mid to late September or early October; if we need it sooner, i will not be able to contribute nearly that much, if anything), i would then expect to make all that money back from sales of the cards, with any excess going one of two places: Ralph, for upkeep up the site, more server space, whatever, or a fund: if we make a bunch of extra money from this run of cards, we can set that money aside (in Ralph's care of course), and next time we want to make cards, we will already have the money set aside.

That said, I think selling them to the magic community at large is the way to go - there should be quite a demand for these - more so if we do them well. If we sell them to the community, we should easily be able to make back our money.

.
the magic public will have access to these cards, but will they be advertised? probably not. this is not a commercial venture. i envision it more as a community project with the main goals being to produce a quality product, have fun, gain some insight in what goes into making a card, and repay the investors.

regarding card design, im going to hold off on sharing my ideas until we are in a more secure thread. we know that there are other people in the design process of the exact same thing we are doing. if they keep doing the same thing theyve been doing, we will make the superior product. lets not tip our hand.

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Post by Lasbrook » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:33 pm

If interested I have a friend I could ask if he wants to try his hand at designing the card frames, I know he's probably itching to put his skills from his art degree to good use.

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Post by normalbrains » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:09 pm

any progress being made on this? should we form a plan of action?

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Post by Mr.C » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:42 pm

First order of Action, IMO, is opening up an email discussion list. Private, of course.

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