Magic Library Community Project

[normalbrains]

i support hammer7 as project leader if he would be interested in doing so.

im going to reiterate my support for a very small set of cards for this first outing. this is not going to be a cakewalk and i dont want us to shoot ourselves in the foot before we even start. organizing the design and artwork (not to mention the money needed to commision artwork) for 10+ cards is going to be exponentially harder than a small set. we are going to run into problems we havent even thought of yet. if we are talking about what makes the most business sense (what will we be able to sell the most of), i think that textless proxies named bazaar, mask, workshop, and drain is our best choice. i think that dual lands have promise, but i want this project to be as successful as possible. if this line becomes established and there is a market for it, we can do anything we want. also, using the exact names of dual lands is kind of pushing it as far as copywright issues. i know magiclibrary has a vested interest in staying on the good side wotc, so id like to hear ralph's take on this. hes a lawyer right?

[silver.paladin]

I feel honored - mintcollector actually agreed with something I said :)

I suggested duals specifically because they haven't been done before. Furthermore, words like Tundra and Plateau don't seem like they could be copyrighted if we just use the word.

Just a quick question - why would people consider words like Tundra or Plateau to not be copywrit, but Library of Alexandria would be? The Library is a historical building, so Wizards would not be able to copyright this set of words, would they?

Back to the main subject, about what type of cards to be created, I agree it does not necessarily have to be a Power 9 or other 'valuable' card - but rather should be balanced between financial value and playable value (or give the playable value more weight). Even a Manipultor or a special Timmy card.

This does sound like a viable project, with the 2 most important elements to be done (IMO) is (a) deciding exactly which cards and how many of each and (b) getting the artwork done and seeing what the finished product would look like. Also, one item of interest is what kind of artwork - the fantasy type of artwork used on cards now, or the anime type that some people enjoy also.

[normalbrains]

Also, one item of interest is what kind of artwork - the fantasy type of artwork used on cards now, or the anime type that some people enjoy also.

id like to see real magic artists doing the art. ideally well-known artists such as rebecca guay, ron spencer, ed beard jr, or the like. this may not be possible because of the money involved, and id rather not get in touch with artists until we figure out what we're doing. i really have no idea how much they would charge or if they would even be interested in such a project...but i think guay might since she has done other third party tokens.

[rick21n]

I really like the idea of dual lands with similar layout to the textless MPR spells. Art shouldn't be all that hard, just go to a local art school and offer a "starving artist" some cash for all the pieces.

thats my .02

[hammr7]

Also, one item of interest is what kind of artwork - the fantasy type of artwork used on cards now, or the anime type that some people enjoy also.

id like to see real magic artists doing the art. ideally well-known artists such as rebecca guay, ron spencer, ed beard jr, or the like. this may not be possible because of the money involved, and id rather not get in touch with artists until we figure out what we're doing. i really have no idea how much they would charge or if they would even be interested in such a project...but i think guay might since she has done other third party tokens.

I see two possible problems with having established MTG artists doing the artwork:

- The potential cost, since these artists can, and often do, charge for their reputations. I don't know any of them personally, so can't ask favors of any of them.

- The problem of getting the artwork to be different enough from the originals, yet be cohesive enough within the set. Each artist has his or her own style, and if we get multiple artists we may have totaly different styles in the set. Furthermore, we don't necessarily want a sketch that the artist has done a thousand times before at conventions and public appearances.

If we can go with an individual artist for the set, then in future years we might have the ability to have a different artist re-interpret the same cards. Another consideration might be to try and get an artist to create a single larger image (a mural) that contains the individual cards. If so, they could be borderless (allowing buyers to put them together like a puzzle), or we could also produce posters which would be compilations of the artwork. Just some ideas to bounce around.

[normalbrains]

I really like the idea of dual lands with similar layout to the textless MPR spells. Art shouldn't be all that hard, just go to a local art school and offer a "starving artist" some cash for all the pieces.

thats my .02

that would be fine, but since these a going to be textless cards, the artwork becomes that much more important. thats really all the card is, so it must be of extremely high quality. can this be found at a local art school for cheap?

as far as not knowing any artists, several forum members have relationships with magic artists, and ed beard jr just recently posted here.

[mintcollector]

Well a point I am surprised no one has brought up yet would be to commission a panorama artwork similar to land sets done for Arena or the newer expansions. Obviously an art piece like this would cost more than a single piece, but should be substantially less than 10 individual pieces I would think. Not only would I think this be cost saving, but this would alleviate the concerns of differing artists, as one piece would be from the same artist, and secondly the project would be panorama! (which we collectors just love).

To further illustrate the feasibility of this idea, I took a snapshot of the WOTC Beta checklist for duals and added the mana colors each land produces, along with artist credit:

Badlands|Rob Alexander|RB
Bayou|Jesper Myrfors|GB
Plateau|Drew Tucker|RW
Savannah|Rob Alexander|GW
Scrubland|Jesper Myrfors|BW
Taiga|Rob Alexander|RG
Tropical Island|Jesper Myrfors|UG
Tundra|Jesper Myrfors|UW
Underground Sea|Rob Alexander|UB
Volcanic Island|Brian Sno-ddy|UR

Now this is not what I might endorse but just to should you how the colors might blend in as to create a believable panorama:

Und_Sea-Badlands-Plateau-Scrubland-Bayou-Trop_Isl-Volc_Isl-Taiga-Savannah
UB-BR-RW-WB-BG-GU-UR-RG-GW

So to visualize the above artwork, you might have a large cavernous area containing a sea that segways into a badlands scene similar to the Montana badlands, which then rolls into a plateau, that leads into a marshy scrubland, which then moves into Louisiana bayou.....etc.

The main point is such a project could be done in a single commission. The cost should be less than 10 separate pieces, we get a single artist, and we get cool panorama artwork making up the rarities promo set.

I think this may be very doable. The major blocks I see would be getting an artist to want to do such a project at a price that would not be outrageously unreachable. For land art, John Avon is king imo, but out of respect for the previous dual artists, maybe they should be approached first for the job. They are all listed above.

Thoughts?

Also, Hank would you be interested in taking the reigns on this? You did reply in post but did not agree or diagree on your nomination.

One last point I wish to just quickly mention. Those of us who might be the major backers of such a project. While all of us here are collectors, some have more financial power than others and thus, might be the major funders of the project. Something needs to be devised to compensate those who would contribute more. I think this is only fair. This incentive might also coerce people interested to donate more than they may normally like if contribution levels were set up. For example. lets say this whole project takes $5000 (this is no way saying this is realiastic, but just for illustrative purposes). We could set levels at $250, $500 and $1000 and have incentives built into the project cost. Items like signed prints, artist proofs, etc may be nice items to get created for these levels. Of course there would be the coveted artist original as well. Just wanted to toss this out there. If nothing is done, who would be willing to blindly share a small fortune if there is nothing beneficial in it for them?

[Celebrindor]

hey im off to work so i cant type long, but i think that we are getting ahead of ourselves talking about making 20 different cards. 20 different original arts? this is going to be incredibly complicated and i think a very small set is in order for our first outing. ill chime in later.

Not necessarily. The original moxen art shows a trinket on a necklace. If we could get an artist to draw all 5 moxen on one necklace, we could then split that art up among the moxen cards, thus using less art, and having cool interconnected art at the same time. Similarly, if we do dual lands, we may be able to have them all drawn on one or two pieces of art - it worked with the 2003 Arena lands.

I like the idea of contribution levels. After all, you are correct that some people will be able to contribute more than others.

[mintcollector]

Celebrindor: My apologies...I recall your post now. I read into it about the panorama moxen....didn't care for the idea, and missed the point about the panorama dual lands. Once again, credit goes to you.

[normalbrains]

id like to direct your attention to this post at gamingetc.com

http://forums.gamingetc.com/index.php?showtopic=16765

apparently a set of dual land proxies is already under way. we would be competing with a well-funded business that has a jump start and experience making cards. is it still a good idea for us?

also, when and if this project becomes official...which should be soon if it happens...i think that the threads and discussions should be done behind closed doors, in a forum viewable only to those involved with the project.

[Celebrindor]

id like to direct your attention to this post at gamingetc.com

http://forums.gamingetc.com/index.php?showtopic=16765

apparently a set of dual land proxies is already under way. we would be competing with a well-funded business that has a jump start and experience making cards. is it still a good idea for us?

Yes. Let them do their crappy ones, ours will be better. A lot of different places make tokens at the same time...

also, when and if this project becomes official...which should be soon if it happens...i think that the threads and discussions should be done behind closed doors, in a forum viewable only to those involved with the project.

Why? its a COMMUNITY project.

[normalbrains]

people in this community should be able to read it if they sign up to help out. since a large amount of money is involved im thinking of it like a business and theres no reason for "outsiders" to know the intimate details of the project.

[mintcollector]

I read through the GamingEtc thread and what they are proposing is vastly different from what we would intened. They will just be making new cards, probably in the low quality format the P9 were done in being all cartoony and all.

Textless duals would be so hot. Look at the demand for the Unhinged lands that are textless.

On some level I agree with normalbrains that things should be taken offline until some things are definitely set in motion. Posting play by play status would just tip off what either lurkers or guests read. For those of you who may or may not know, many lurkers are those who use this site as nothing more than a tool for personal exploitation and/or info research. They have no vested interest in the community, but would be willing to capatialize on the information found here. For example, delspapertreasury is a perfect example. This guy posted here to fight the community on the Beta Black Lotus issue long ago. Since then the Crystalline Sliver rumors of being stolen has created a major market for these cards which keep surfacing. Well he is now a bidder on every one that ever appears. Coincidence? Maybe, but I tend to be more cynical about people. The guy was a jerk off when he did post here anyways. Or what about all the past cases where Magic Rarities was cited and not given credit? This has happened and will happen again. The point is some people just use this site, not giving anything back ever in return.

Maybe as a base contributor reward, a private email status mailing gets set up. Or even a private forum here as normalbrains pointed out. The point is things should be taken offline until the project is nearing fruition. Critical things like art concepts, project timelines, budget, etc. should be kept on the down low. While Celebrindor did make a point this is a community project, but the community is those who would support the project endeavours....financially. It is these people who would contribute their money and time to the project. Those who would not step forward to help out should be left on the sidelines waiting just like everyone else. Just simply being a member here or reading this site does not make you a part of the community imo. It is the people that contribute to this site through various means that make it a community.

[Celebrindor]

I hadn't thought of it in that way, mintcollector, but you make a very valid point.

[mintcollector]

I hadn't thought of it in that way, mintcollector, but you make a very valid point.

Keeping it hush hush is not meant to create some secret circle or private club, but to protect the project. Money is involved here and people tend to get a little funny morally when it comes to that.