How big of a threat are fakes & counterfeits?

[Tenacious_Dyl]

Hey,
I was just inquiring about the "threat" of fake Magic cards.

I mean, we all know they exist, and most of us have probably seen them... but I am wondering if any of you have a figure or an idea about how widespread they are, and how many sites and auctioneer's are tainted by this.

I have seen a few fakes and "proxies" by kids at my local store and playing areas... none of them look too good, just crap. However, I decided to make my own, just to see how much I could do. I looked up a picture of some of my favorite rares (time walk... hehe).

If anyone is interested in my processes, I will post them, but for the sake of message board space and time, I will just say what I used.

HpDeskjet 5550 ($100 home printer, nothing special). Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Word (OS X Version), Rubber Cement, Hi Grade Laser Printer Paper.

Well, to make a story short, my fakes pass the bend test, have no visible changes to the cards themselves, and can only be discovered as fakes by 2 things: Water Test ( i use just inkjet paper, it bleeds when wet ). The shiny-ness, they are slightly glossy, but not as much as a card. I suppose if you ultra-magnified them, you could see a difference in printing processes.

But the point is this, I am not very good with printers and such, and my printer is average, and I fooled plenty of people at my gamestore, a few at first didn't believe they were fake.

What is the possibility many famous cards are just fakes being dished out for cashed? And what % of power 9 auctions / sellings are legit?... hrmmmm a thinking question, hehehe.

Take Care,
Dylan I.

[Lord_of_Llanowar]

well, tnx for explaining people how to do it :D
but if its really that easy its sure makes you think about your own power cards :(

now i gotto cry myself to sleep tonight

[dry cereal]

im becoming nervous about the possibility of fake crimp-cards.  This avenue needs to be looked into.  I wonder if that crimped lotus was done intentionally... >:(

[jasonhowlett]

There are a couple of this that I would add to this thread

As friend of mine was able to split the power nine from the Factory Set, round the corners and splice it on to a split Beta Land. These were practiaclly indistinguishable from orginals, apart from they failed the bend test (which had he used rubber cement I guess they would have passed).

Another thing to be very warry is that StarCityGames.com posted the printer mark-up sheets from Mirrodin. (They were taken down, without reference within hours.) If anyone got hold of them they have access to printer quality versions of the entire set.

Be very carefull when buying highly priced singles from Mirrodin.

[Tenacious_Dyl]

Hrmm... very interesting.

Lord_of_Llanowar: I didn't tell people how to do it. Anyone would realize a printer, software, and glue would be involved. There was a reason I didn't post publicly "blah blah do this step one, blah blah step two".... I mean, I trust all the members of this forum. But remember, anyone can randomly register and/or view these. Sometimes that's bad. However, if particular individuals email me (some already have) I would not mind letting people know this method provided I knew they would not do wrong of course :-)

dry_cereal: I wouldn't think that faking a crimped card would be very profitable except in some odd situations, like your collecting them. I have owned a few crimped cards in my days, and gotten within 2 dollars of their original value, whether it was 2 dollars less or more. Perhaps if someone heard someone saying "I NEED A MOX RUBY CRIMPED AND WILL PAY CASH" someone could fake it for the odd demand. I mean... talk about an easy fake. Crimped cards simply involve "pressing" lines on the top or bottom of a card, nothing required but something hard to make indentations and a steady hand.

Another trend I forgot to mention earlier was "hitting up kinkos". For those that don't know (foreigners, hehe) Kinko's is a copy place, that does other stuff too, but yes. There was actually a man locally that took his dual lands to Kinkos, talked the worker into letting him do it (copyrights) and printed out some HIGH GRADE dual lands, of course, he didn't print the backs of the cards, so they appeared like 'artist proofs'... but some rubber cement could fix that.

The only thing I can think of is if wizards put a small number on each copy of every rare, so when you get the said rare you could "register" your number, thus, any copies of that card would be obvious.. This however.. is a terrible idea.. but what other options are there?

Best Regards,
Dylan I.

[silver.paladin]

Another trend I forgot to mention earlier was "hitting up kinkos". For those that don't know (foreigners, hehe) Kinko's is a copy place, that does other stuff too, but yes. There was actually a man locally that took his dual lands to Kinkos, talked the worker into letting him do it (copyrights) and printed out some HIGH GRADE dual lands, of course, he didn't print the backs of the cards, so they appeared like 'artist proofs'... but some rubber cement could fix that.

I agree with what you are saying.  Years back, when CE were cheap to buy, I bought a sealed set, and a friend and I used the good cards in there to create our own 'proxies'.  There are any number of places that will allow you to photocopy items, and we had all the cards photocopied multiple times so that we could use them in numerous decks (especially multiple duals).  My friend spent hours taking apart Revised lands, and using cement glue to put the copies of these cards onto the backs of the Revised lands, which essentially were the correct width, and then kept the cards in sleeves.  Lots of people marveled how we had so many minty Beta's all the time, and I let them think what they thought they were.  I always refused to let people handle the cards, which includes not selling or trading them either. They were proxies, I knew they were proxies, and I was not about to let anyone use them, because if someone else got them and started cheating other people, they might blame me for it, which is not needed.  I just enjoyed playing with black bordered cards all the time, and really enjoyed the Power cards.  Its a very easy thing to do, but I would never buy single expensive rares from people with low Ebay feedback, just because in todays world, you never know who you can trust.
I did get one card lately that I am unsure of, but I am trying to get it scanned and send to Dragsamou, to see if he feels I got a fake or not.

[sylvanstu]

I have several fake cards that i got from a friend who used to own a gaming store a guy came in to try to sell theese to him they look real pass bend test but you can see through them a little if held up to a light. I use theese for casual play instead of ruining my personal power nine cards. I've been offered money for theese fakes by people who know they're fakes but i won't sell them don't trust anyone to not sell them. and i also gave out about 6 black lotuses to close friends so they can use for our casual play

[Tenacious_Dyl]

sylvanstu: Hehehe... yeah.. those ones that you see through are great... but just dumb, lol.

The hardest part to fake is the back of a card, the cheapest fakes are just those with stickers and items glued or printed over the old cards. Thus, they are a bigger threat.

A new test I thought of is quite a good idea! (other may have mentioned it in the past, but I cannot recall it)

If possible... get a large number of minty cards from the same set of the possibly fake card. Weigh them using a VERY fine postal or jeweler's scale. Find the "average weight" of a card, so one odd card doesn't throw you out.  Then weigh your potentially fake card. See how close the "maybe fake" card is to the average of the other cards in the set.

This would help you detect stickers, pastings, glue, extra layers, etc. The other solution would be to try to see if you could "peel" part of it off... but peeling a lotus is a bad idea... imagine if you peeled a lotus corner only to reveal it was real. Ouch ;-)

Take Care,
Dylan I.

Edit: silver.paladin: Please send me the picture of the card you are asking Dragsamou about :-) I have many good graphics programs, and I will look at it as best I can... perhaps I can help add to Dragsamou's wisdom :-) hehehe. (my email is linkable to all forum viewers...)

[silver.paladin]

Edit: silver.paladin: Please send me the picture of the card you are asking Dragsamou about :-) I have many good graphics programs, and I will look at it as best I can... perhaps I can help add to Dragsamou's wisdom :-) hehehe. (my email is linkable to all forum viewers...)

Thanks.  I was supposed to get our leasing girl at work to scan both sides of the card for me, and today I found out she is off until middle of next week.  So I still need to wait until I can get this card scanned, but I can send it to you also if you like.

[dragsamou]

Hi Members.Hi Sliver Paladin.
The Card in Question is a Five Goblins Token Minagishi.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 19115&rd=1
and that was The Message that sent me Silver Paladin:
Hi Dragsamou,
I had a question for you.  I finally received the 5-goblin token that I won on Ebay  and now that I have it, I am looking at it, it appears to be slightly blurry.  The words, such as Five Goblins Token are not crisp and clear, but slightly blurred.  Is that the way they are supposed to look?

Only reason I am asking, is over the past couple of weeks, I have seen this seller sell 4 goblin and zombie tokens of this type, and just wondering if it is the real token, or maybe fakes.  

I don't want to ask the seller this just yet, in case this is normal, so that it does not appear that I am accusing him of fakes - so thought I would ask you and see if you would think it probably is real tokens or possible fake.

Thanks

To my opinion Minagishi Tokens are by far the Most Copied Tokens,and Yes,we can call them Fake Minagishi.
I do remember the time when Bob,sold his 5 Goblins on Ebay it went for almost 100$  ;)
The First Foils Goblin and Zombie went for over 100$.
Since then,tons of Minagishi have appeared From China,
Singapore,etc..When,for years,you cannot find a Minagishi Token in Tokyo,or it's really Hard.I know even a Shop,who offers 1 Minagishi Token,for 25$ purchase in their shop :'(
I wait for a Better Scan to be sure but so far,a bunch of
EBay Buyers get ripped off Big Time,Sliver when you see a Scan that Blured ask for another one and compare to the Real Five Goblins on Magic Rarities  ;)

[silver.paladin]

Thank you for the reply.   I have emailed the seller asking where he/she has gotten these numerous 5 gobin/zombie tokens, as I do now believe I have been conned and have had $20 essentially stolen.  I would say conned, because the auction does state that it is a Jun token card, not a reproduction.  I am waiting to hear from him first, to decide if this should be reported to Ebay and try to get my $20 back or not.  Not that it is a real big deal, only $20, but it may stop numerous other people from being ripped off (if indeed these cards are all fakes).  I will still give the seller the benefit of the doubt for the moment.
Dragsamou, would you like me to send the card your way to compare it with what you have or not?  I do not mind.  Its only a letter envelope from Canada to Paris.

Thank you

[bigfatkitty]

Well crap... >:(...I bought some of these recently too.

They're at the post office waiting for me to pick them up.  I'll post once I get a good look at them.  

I knew it seemed like it was too good to be true.

[dragsamou]

Thank you for the reply.   I have emailed the seller asking where he/she has gotten these numerous 5 gobin/zombie tokens, as I do now believe I have been conned and have had $20 essentially stolen.  I would say conned, because the auction does state that it is a Jun token card, not a reproduction.  I am waiting to hear from him first, to decide if this should be reported to Ebay and try to get my $20 back or not.  Not that it is a real big deal, only $20, but it may stop numerous other people from being ripped off (if indeed these cards are all fakes).  I will still give the seller the benefit of the doubt for the moment.
Dragsamou, would you like me to send the card your way to compare it with what you have or not?  I do not mind.  Its only a letter envelope from Canada to Paris.

Thank you

Hi Sliver.
I can compare with mine with no problems but maybe it will be easier to ask to Some Magic Rarities Members
living in the US and Having the Real One  ;)
If no one offers his help ,I will be happy to receive the Card for Close comparison.

[Erl00]

Thank you for the reply.   I have emailed the seller asking where he/she has gotten these numerous 5 gobin/zombie tokens, as I do now believe I have been conned and have had $20 essentially stolen.  I would say conned, because the auction does state that it is a Jun token card, not a reproduction.  I am waiting to hear from him first, to decide if this should be reported to Ebay and try to get my $20 back or not.  Not that it is a real big deal, only $20, but it may stop numerous other people from being ripped off (if indeed these cards are all fakes).
Thank you

That's right, but there's worse. Think about poor guys, like me who purchased some nice Minagishi token (genuine) when they were worth $25 each and they are now at $3 on MOTL Chinese Have list because fakes have flooded the market.

To my mind, harm is now done.

Regards,
Eric.

[silver.paladin]

Hi Sliver.
I can compare with mine with no problems but maybe it will be easier to ask to Some Magic Rarities Members
living in the US and Having the Real One  ;)
If no one offers his help ,I will be happy to receive the Card for Close comparison.

If indeed these cards are fakes  (still giving the benefit of the doubt to the seller), besides reporting to Ebay that this seller is auctioning fake items, is it possible to let Jun, or Crazy Clowns know, that is if they care to know and see what might come out of doing that?