What is this?

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Muldoon
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Re: What is this?

Post by Muldoon » Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:31 pm

Thats why europeans like me despise new product and rather buy old singles online ;D
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Erl00
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Re: What is this?

Post by Erl00 » Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:32 pm

I beleive you, but I can't see how faking packs and cards would be cost effective.  Especially in America where I can get packs for around $2 each.
Because for using resealed wrappers, you would have to purchase real boosters first. How do you want to be cost effective with that?

We are in front of a very well organized team here. I don't think they know much about the game or they would have tried to fake something else than 8th Ed. commons.

So there is no rationale for them to purchase real boosters (very expensive), to take time to open them, to take time to resale real cards, to take time to reseal wrappers, when they can just use their facility to produce fake wrappers.
Please help me finish my Boosters collection

victorcamp
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Re: What is this?

Post by victorcamp » Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:48 pm

Perhaps it's a legitimate WOTC product with alternate packaging (as mentioned at the beginning of the thread), but the seller's "Not for Tournament" is simply broken English for "Not a Tournament Pack". What we used to call "Starter Packs" WOTC now calls "Tournament Packs", so these have boosters and do not include all the extra lands.

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squt
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Re: What is this?

Post by squt » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:39 pm

Is someone in Europe willing to spend some euros to get one of these 'bags' and put to rest this debate?

: )

Squt

Annorax
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Re: What is this?

Post by Annorax » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:55 pm

Is someone in Europe willing to spend some euros to get one of these 'bags' and put to rest this debate?

: )

Squt
Current bid is 5.something euros. Shipping is 12 euros.

Something tells me they have better things to spend their money on, like real cards. :P
Bah,

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bigfatkitty
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Re: What is this?

Post by bigfatkitty » Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:31 am

Are the cards in these fake packs randomized?  What's the possiblity of a different inting and packaging facility being used on these cards?
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squt
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Re: What is this?

Post by squt » Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:58 pm

I've got a weird thing to throw out there that's vaguely on this topic...I just got a box of Japanese Mirrodin Boosters, and they are packed like the "Fake" boosters in this JPG:

            http://www.chez.com/erl00/PacksImages/F ... odin-b.jpg

The crimping lines on the bottom are identical to the 'fake' pack (horizontal).  The top is the same, but extended up about 1/4 of an inch, with a cut-out tab at the top so that retailers can hang them from a hook.

Now, despite the horizontal crimp, the coloring on the front and the UPC code on the back look like the 'real' pack, with the addition of the Hobby Japan website under the magicthegathering.com url.  Furthermore, the box came shrinkwrapped in wotc celophane, and the VERY FIRST PACK that I opened had a foil platinum angel!  I don't think we've heard of counterfeit foils yet, have we?  And this is the second box of Japanese Mirrodin I've gone through, both from different trustworthy sources, and both had identical packs.

So...what's up with the horizontal crimp in the pack?  If it is legitimate, does that imply that the same factory (maybe in asia) printing legit cards is also printing fake packs on their own?

Squt

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Re: What is this?

Post by hammr7 » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:31 pm

Or maybe the counterfeiting plant, hearing that Wizards was bragging that the celophane wrap hadn't been counterfeited, decided that adding the wrap would be another way to con people.

I haven't heard of phoney foils, and thought the counterfeit cards were different sizes than real magic cards (and then there are the "variations" in print quality).  However, each of these differences can be reconciled with time so long as there is no legal pressure on the facility (someone trying to shut it down).

If labor is talented and inexpensive (sounds like mainland China to me), and the government doesn't really care, then anything is possible.

Of course, this could just be Wizards trying out new equipment and / or suppliers.  It just doesn't seem right, given their recent news releases and descriptions about counterfeit product.
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Re: What is this?

Post by silver.paladin » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:43 pm

Squt, if I might ask, have you tried to rip and tear test yet?  I imagine with a box of cards, you can easily afford to rip a common, or even an uncommon in half and see if it looks like a normal WoTC product, as shown on their site.  If it looks wrong, then you can probably be assured that the whole box is fake, but if it is looking right, then it may be safe to assume a new company is doing the packaging.
Oct 30, away until further notice

hammr7
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Re: What is this?

Post by hammr7 » Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:10 pm

A scary  thought.  If the product is legitimate, then maybe the legal printing plant is overproducing, and sending the illicit excess to another packaging facility.  That way they can get the extra profits.
Where have all the Magic sticker sets gone?

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bigfatkitty
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Re: What is this?

Post by bigfatkitty » Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:07 am

I can't see how this product can't be legit.  It wouldn't be cost effective to produce cards, randomized packs, wrappers, boxes, etc.  Even if they were sold only in Europe, it would be to big of a pain in the ass to make it worthwhile.  Eric could quite possibly have new wrapper variations to collect.

Has MCM (Shaun) told on these people yet to see if there is maybe another wrapper sealing variation?  That's the only realistic answer.   ???
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squt
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Re: What is this?

Post by squt » Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:10 am

I just ripped a joiner, and it passed.  I opened 2/3ds of the box and I'm sure it's legit (got two foil rares out of it too - woo woo!).

The thing I'm wondering is, does WOTC want collectors to think that foreign product is counterfeit?  There's been a lot of pressure put on retailers not to import and export product lately...

Squt

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Re: What is this?

Post by Tenacious_Dyl » Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:10 am

About foil counterfeits... it is very possible, and easier than normal cards in some cases, if you must make foil counterfeits.

If anyone remembers or refers to my now very old contributions on how cards are made.. you will realize how easy foil counterfeits are.

You take a normal magic backing, add a layer of thin aluminum or aluminum like powder or paper layer, and print instead of on carboard, clear plastic, your front of the card.

So.. you could grab 100 old foil lands, peel the fronts off of them, and within margin of error, maybe come out with 85 foil 'birds of paradise' (or whichever card you want).

I think if you have a production plant enough to print on cardboard, many many cards, then you will be able to print on thin plastic material as well.

I think it is not the *difficulty* of making foils that stops people, I think it is the *effort*. Surely... someone will buy a box of counterfeits if they think they can get foils or just assume they can.

These fakes are getting closer and closer... soon, a booster display will appear the same from the outside whether fake or real. So, for a plant to make foil cards and randomly insert them... there is no point. A consumer will buy it anyway.

The only probable reason for a fake producer to waste time making and inserting foils is if they expect constant shipment to the same sources. Evenetually, people would notice that certain stores sold "foil-less" displays...

So in ending, foil cards are possible to fake, and easy at that. The question is just, are these fakes widespread enough to bother putting the effort fourth to make foil fakes.

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Re: What is this?

Post by Tenacious_Dyl » Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:35 am

Hrmmm back to cost-effectiveness :)

I am a man of business and numbers... I enjoy this.

You are correct, to take the time to fake a wrapper, to fake a box, and to the fake the cards... and then perhaps sell for only $2.00 or little more a pack seems hardly worth it.

Remember, evil or not, this is like a business. First they must set themselves into it all. Perhaps after materials and labor are paid for ... the first 200 boosters sold make them a total profit of only $30.

If you were to start a Pizza Restaraunt, remember that for even months perhaps after opening your Pizza Restaraunt, you may make only pennies on each Pizza, and sometimes even lose money until your debt is paid off.

Right now, faking cards, boosters, foils, and boxes, even other things like shrinkrap and rules cards is a lot of work, so you are correct... temporarily they would make little to no money on sales... perhaps even lose money.

The goal here for them is to get a good foundation and grow. Just like the Pizza Place... if enough product sells, the loans will be paid off and there is room for expansion, profit, or both.

These counterfeits will probably sell, perhaps fast or slow, we can't be certain, but eventually they will sell. The more that sell, the faster the printing presses can be paid off, and in turn the faster more equipment can be purchased and paid off, and eventually marginally larger profits gained.

Perhaps in a year each pack sold will give them $0.25 in profits instead of $0.02 . Of course we say "$0.25" is no money at all.... but also keep in mind almost guarenteed growth if something doesn't stop these guys. Selling massive amounts of things at low prices ALWAYS rakes in more cash than selling a few things are ellevated prices.

An example for this would be in anything in life really. WalMart makes more profits than Meijers... both sell clothing, and home goods... Walmart makes much less per product, but makes much more.

Another example is cars, makers like BMW gain less money than Chevrolet... yes BMW's are more expensive but much less are sold... you understand?

I think that what will happen is that if large measures aren't taken, the fakes will make the market much more flooded, and price wars will start. This will drop the price of cards WAY down, and make them almost worthless. Similar to Germany's plans of dropping fake French money out of planes to super-inflate France's economy.

However, if WOTC somehow added holograms or something fancier to the boxs and packs, not necessarily stopping fakes but deterring them, then the prices would probably go up for the packs because the fakes would be known before they would be bought, and we would see legitimate pack prices rise, thus making single prices rise also.

Opinions?

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bigfatkitty
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Re: What is this?

Post by bigfatkitty » Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:11 am

My opinion:  These are variations and not fakes.  If you can somehow prove randomizing cards and making foils, boosters and boxes would be profitable then I'd believe it.  If I could make fake foils, I'd sell them as singles and not as this elababorate plan.  It does not make sense even throwing in the cost of a European box.   ;D

Eric, I'm sorry but I think your booster collection has grown.  It's much like people who collect coins in America, there are almost half a dozen or more minting facilities who create 'unique' items.  It's amazing it's taken this long to come about.  Carta Mundi has not been able to grow to the point of WOTC's new market and there is a possibility of a new player in the sealing/printing business.

Where's Shaun to find out the cold, hard facts!   ;D
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