A Personal note from Mystical_tutor

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Alien_Starfighter_Pilot
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Post by Alien_Starfighter_Pilot » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:55 pm

'drawn and quartered' is not appropriate in this situation Gary. Horses are, due to their physiology, a LAND mammal.

keelhauling, however.... That's a MUCH more traditionally marine punishment that is also rather gruesome, especially considering the current means of MV propulsion. 3 trips through a vessel such as the one the master and crew abandoned would be....

At this point I will say that I, due to my duties and responsibilities, will as always keep my opinion to myself regarding the subject of crimes and punishments. I do wish, however, that I had been much closer and been able to assist in the rescue attempt.

And yes, eventually the South Koreans will move on, but for now, this tragedy is very much in the hearts and minds of the Korean people, and currently consumes and disrupts much of their daily routine. Even as a foreigner it is painful just witnessing their anguish firsthand.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:07 am

ouallada wrote:You could draw that comparison, but you need to prove that the correlation isn't negligible. I work in JPM. We just got hit with huge fines for illegal manipulation of credit indices in Europe. Does it mean that I am more likely to behave in such a fashion, when that decision was made by a bunch of people in a separate line of business I have never dealt with? Think about it.
I have thought about it--and will continue. I assert that, in this case, Corporate mentality affected the decisions/indecisions of the Captain and some of the crew and contributed to them forsaking their duty and resulted in needless loss of life.
Dispite your Reductio ad absurdum of comparing the corporate mentality expected in a ration of 1 in 1,364,040,000 to the influence in a Korean organization of aprox. 1 in >100 (exact numbers have escaped me) I do not feel any proof is necessary that this is NOT a red herring but a valid consideration that has effected the lives of several hundred people.

I doubt that you will concede your position so I will say no more except for one rather well know example of corporate mentality and social "justice".
There was an organization consisting of somewhere near 8 million people. Because of the corporate mentality of that group heinous crimes were committed. When the group was brought to justice by we of the civilized world the leadership and key players were tried and executed, rank and file members were persecuted for the rest of their lives and some hunted down and killed. Their organization was made illegal.
I think their punishment was just but never actually "paid for" what they did. I see that your stance would have let them off--maybe life in prison with parole?

So, What would you propose as a fitting punishment for those that ran off and left the passengers to die? Defend the law by applying it justly in this case with no emotion. If you can do that, you have failed both the law and society.

my two cents.

Gary
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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:19 am

Alien_Starfighter_Pilot wrote:'drawn and quartered' is not appropriate in this situation Gary. Horses are, due to their physiology, a LAND mammal.

keelhauling, however.... That's a MUCH more traditionally marine punishment that is also rather gruesome, especially considering the current means of MV propulsion. 3 trips through a vessel such as the one the master and crew abandoned would be....
blush, I have to admit, I had to look this up. Even with a family tradition of Navy I had forgotten all I ever knew of it.

In this case the punishment might not be hard enough though. It appears that the ship hull was quite clean of barnacles so the trip under would have been too smooth.

Good point though as it is much more appropriate in the environment.

Yes, change my "drawn and quartered" to Keelhauled.

Gary
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Post by ouallada » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:31 am

mystical_tutor wrote:
ouallada wrote:You could draw that comparison, but you need to prove that the correlation isn't negligible. I work in JPM. We just got hit with huge fines for illegal manipulation of credit indices in Europe. Does it mean that I am more likely to behave in such a fashion, when that decision was made by a bunch of people in a separate line of business I have never dealt with? Think about it.
I have thought about it--and will continue. I assert that, in this case, Corporate mentality affected the decisions/indecisions of the Captain and some of the crew and contributed to them forsaking their duty and resulted in needless loss of life.
Dispite your Reductio ad absurdum of comparing the corporate mentality expected in a ration of 1 in 1,364,040,000 to the influence in a Korean organization of aprox. 1 in >100 (exact numbers have escaped me) I do not feel any proof is necessary that this is NOT a red herring but a valid consideration that has effected the lives of several hundred people.

I doubt that you will concede your position so I will say no more except for one rather well know example of corporate mentality and social "justice".
There was an organization consisting of somewhere near 8 million people. Because of the corporate mentality of that group heinous crimes were committed. When the group was brought to justice by we of the civilized world the leadership and key players were tried and executed, rank and file members were persecuted for the rest of their lives and some hunted down and killed. Their organization was made illegal.
I think their punishment was just but never actually "paid for" what they did. I see that your stance would have let them off--maybe life in prison with parole?

So, What would you propose as a fitting punishment for those that ran off and left the passengers to die? Defend the law by applying it justly in this case with no emotion. If you can do that, you have failed both the law and society.

my two cents.

Gary
It is not a reductio ad absurdum because 1) it is a statement that correlation does not equate to causation, in which case the burden of proof lies on you -- proof not just that it is possible, but that it is probable that corporate ethics rub off on employees, and 2) a reductio ad absurdum is happily an accepted form of debate used by everyone from Socrates to Nietzsche to Hitchens. Feel free to continue failing to prove there is a correlation between a company's misdemeanours and the increased likelihood of an employee to act in a certain way. Have you picketed a BP employee staying close to you for being in obvious opposition to environmental preservation yet?

Numbers don't matter -- correlations only make sense if backed with proof as to why there should be correlations. Should we assume that all of Heidegger's university mates should be painted as Nazis? Let's take the example of Combat -- the publication founded by Camus and to which Sartre contributed. Are we saying that Camus' founding of the publication meant that Sartre necessarily conformed to Camus' thinking? The opposite was inherently and empirically true. How many other examples do you need before you provide some kind of proof?

You just evoked Godwin's Law, I'd give up if I were you if the best example you can think of is a politico-social form of propaganda to relate that to a modern corporation. Would we paint the 87.5% of Germany with that same brush? Was everyone involved in Lehman Brothers a profiteering banker with no regard for the sanctity of invested assets? I would advise caution before you respond. What's next, blaming the Italians for Mussolini?

What gives you the right to pass judgment and exact punishment then? Because you are angry? The WBC is pretty angry with gays being given more and more rights. Are they allowed to celebrate incidents like the Boston bombings because their extremist view of the bible, no doubt tainted by the same emotion you speak of, has given them recourse to such thoughts? In that case, I would say that it is you who has no place in a lawful society as law only applies to you as long as it fits your emotions.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu May 01, 2014 10:49 pm

Well, as bad as you may wish to make this a philosophical debate, it is not. This whole real life situation is far to serious to philosophise about and I resent your attempt to show off at the expense of those who are suffering.
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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu May 01, 2014 11:07 pm

The father of one of the students has released the recording contained on his son's phone. I read most of the report but could not bring myself to watch the tape. I really wish the media would not put it up on TV but I know that they will, at least parts of it.

It is obvious that the students were not informed in a meaningful way as to how serious the situation was. The time to get out was missed because of the lack of response by the captain and crew.

One paper published that there was 3x the amount of cargo (weight) on the ship than was safe to carry. On TV they showed how much lower in the water the ship was than the water line. There is a lot of interest right now in just how they could pass their safety and insurance inspections like this... money? I'm sure the investigation will spread some responsibility and hopefully reveal some corruption that might be stopped.
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Post by GlobalBoosterHunter » Fri May 02, 2014 3:36 am

This Summer I spent several weeks in Greece travelling between the islands on the ferries. Their views on passenger safety are a joke.

Every foot passenger has at least a suitcase or two, cameras, handbags and bags of souvenirs etc. The companies have allowed for only a fraction of the storage required. Passengers are sitting with backpacks on their laps, or on the seats next to them or in the aisles. Luggage is stacked up all along the front of the boat in the passenger seating area, it often obscures the view out the front windows and when that is full they start stacking it up in the passageways.

There are more passengers than there are seats so people start sleeping on the floor and in front of doors.

When it docks in a port there is chaos as people start digging through the luggage looking for their bags and if you get up to make sure no one is stealing your luggage the guards tell you to get back in your seat.

One trip took about 9 hours and I swear I will never get on another Greek ferry for as long as I live.

One ferry I went on I recognised from my home town in England. It had been decommissioned in the UK but was still running between ports in the Agean, back then it was known as the "Vomit Comet" because it got you across the English channel in about 45 minutes (which is good) but the slightest roughness in the sea made everyone sick. It was now being used for five-hour journeys, I did not enjoy that trip.

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Post by ouallada » Fri May 02, 2014 5:49 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:Well, as bad as you may wish to make this a philosophical debate, it is not. This whole real life situation is far to serious to philosophise about and I resent your attempt to show off at the expense of those who are suffering.
Are you serious?

It isn't a philosophical debate, it is a debate that has passed into the realms of the philosophical, because the philosophical realm is exactly where ethical conundrums like these are hashed out. Was Darwin's theory, which originated as a philosophical work (as did Newton's) any less part of life because of its origin? What about socialism, which was a perversion of Marxist thought? Was that any less valid to Stalin's and Pol Pot's victims?

Look, you know very little about me, but it is borderline insulting for you to even insinuate that I am showing off at the expense of people who are suffering. Is this what you do whenever a debate lies beyond your reach? Did Tony Blair blame Hitchens for the suffering of godless kids in Africa because the latter repudiated the existence of a benevolent God and beat him soundly in a debate on religion? This is far worse than MH370 as far as I am concerned, but make no mistake, sorrow is not to be mistaken for an entitled opinion on meted justice. I'm going to contain the urge I have to return your comment in kind, and kindly ask that you retain some objectivity before you post -- it isn't befitting a moderator of any forum to be accusatory like this.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat May 03, 2014 1:04 am

GlobalBoosterHunter wrote:This Summer I spent several weeks in Greece travelling between the islands on the ferries. Their views on passenger safety are a joke.

Every foot passenger has at least a suitcase or two, cameras, handbags and bags of souvenirs etc. The companies have allowed for only a fraction of the storage required. Passengers are sitting with backpacks on their laps, or on the seats next to them or in the aisles. Luggage is stacked up all along the front of the boat in the passenger seating area, it often obscures the view out the front windows and when that is full they start stacking it up in the passageways.

There are more passengers than there are seats so people start sleeping on the floor and in front of doors.

When it docks in a port there is chaos as people start digging through the luggage looking for their bags and if you get up to make sure no one is stealing your luggage the guards tell you to get back in your seat.

One trip took about 9 hours and I swear I will never get on another Greek ferry for as long as I live.

One ferry I went on I recognised from my home town in England. It had been decommissioned in the UK but was still running between ports in the Agean, back then it was known as the "Vomit Comet" because it got you across the English channel in about 45 minutes (which is good) but the slightest roughness in the sea made everyone sick. It was now being used for five-hour journeys, I did not enjoy that trip.
I have seen pictures of some real full ferries. The one you mention certainly points to possible lack of passenger concern. Hopefully it has been upgraded a bit after decommissioning. But I guess that would have to depend on a corporate interest......

To add illustrations to the situation here:
1) Another Ferry on a routine port to island trip had motor trouble and returned to port--rumor is all ready going around that it sank......

2)The fat fish of the corporation are trying to dodge the government. This is from the Yonhap news (sometimes knows to be a bit on the spectacular side):

INCHEON, May 2 (Yonhap) -- The owner family of a sunken ferry and their close aides have been notified for the last time to appear before prosecutors for questioning after they refused to comply with prosecution summonses twice, prosecutors said Friday.

The prosecution gave an ultimatum to Yoo Hyuk-ki, the second son of Yoo Byung-eun, a billionaire suspected to be the de facto owner of Chonghaejin Marine Co. that owns and operates the ferry Sewol, and two chiefs of affiliates suspected to be owned by the Yoo family to show up at the Incheon District Prosecutors' Office in the western port city of Incheon by Thursday.

Everyone is watching to see just how far their BIG money will get them out of trouble. There is a spectrum of bets.

3) There was a subway accident, mechanical problem, a train got rearended 170 banged up but no serious injuries (as yet noted--I'm sure there will be "back problems" and "whiplash" for years to come.
Point: Two paragraphs in the paper about it then the next three paragraphs were about the Ferry sinking......

4) Mud throwing at the government. Pres O was here, wore a black suit (when has he NOT worn a black suit for official business). Pres Pak wore green (it is spring) and is being criticized. Pres O was in morning for the students and she was not...... sigh.

Truely a National tragedy.
Gary Adkison
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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat May 03, 2014 1:19 am

Alien_Starfighter_Pilot wrote:And yes, eventually the South Koreans will move on, but for now, this tragedy is very much in the hearts and minds of the Korean people, and currently consumes and disrupts much of their daily routine. Even as a foreigner it is painful just witnessing their anguish firsthand.
I appreciated Kerry's comment (as reported by Yonhap):

WASHINGTON, May 2 (Yonhap) -- U.S. Secretary of John Kerry expressed sympathy Friday for the loss of scores of South Korean students in the sinking of a ferry last month.

"As a father and grandfather myself, I cannot begin to imagine the pain so many in the Republic of Korea are enduring," he said in a statement issued on the occasion of South Korea's Children's Day that falls on May 5.

For those not knowing, Korean "Children's Day" is a national holiday dedicated to children. Parents celebrate their children with presents, trips, special love and emphesis.

It will be a doubly sad day here. I think every parent is going to consider what it would have been like if one of the students had been their son or daughter.

I have heard a rumor that I can not verify at this point. The 15th is National Teachers day and one of he college students said it will not be celebrated but rather all are encouraged to pray for the families of the Ferry accident.

If you hear anything about that Clay please pass it back.

Gary
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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:16 pm

Sorry to those I have due-outs to.

Back problems have really sapped my energy, physical and mental.

Eyes are not doing well so I have slowed down on computer stuff and scans have not been processed for some time.

Trying to get back into it but kinda slow.

If I owe anyone anything please send me a tickler about it.

Gary
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Post by GlobalBoosterHunter » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:40 am

Sorry to hear about that!

Rest and relaxation is what you need!

Get well soon.

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Post by Blood » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:23 am

GlobalBoosterHunter wrote:Sorry to hear about that!

Rest and relaxation is what you need!

Get well soon.
Incorrect. Gencon is what he needs! You heading out this year Gary?

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Post by GlobalBoosterHunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:11 am

Sorry to hear about that!

Gencon is what you need!

Get well soon.

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Post by Knutsen » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:17 pm

Best wishes - and get well soon!

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