A Personal note from Mystical_tutor

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tap4black
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Post by tap4black » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:54 am

As someone who has a merchant marine captains license, I cannot help but be sick to my stomach about the captain/crew and their callous disregard for the passengers under their charge.

Life in prison would be nothing but a slap on the wrist for the tragedy they have caused.

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Post by ouallada » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:12 am

A terrible tragedy, but let's not get overly vindictive.

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Post by random » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:10 pm

A terrible tragedy, but let's not get overly vindictive.
How would you punish these people who disregarded 1,000+ years of conventional maritime law and fled like cowards while 200+ kids wound up drowning due to apparent incompetence?

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Post by mystical_tutor » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:41 pm

The dupety headmaster from the school who approved the trip has done the honorable thing.

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Post by random » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:05 am

Agreed. I read about that young woman who worked in the cafeteria who helped the kids escape while she stayed behind and drowned. Meanwhile, the captain and his group got off the ship asap...

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Post by ouallada » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:12 am

random wrote:
A terrible tragedy, but let's not get overly vindictive.
How would you punish these people who disregarded 1,000+ years of conventional maritime law and fled like cowards while 200+ kids wound up drowning due to apparent incompetence?
According to that same law, which is very different from asking for more lives to be taken. Is that really a question?

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Post by mystical_tutor » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:11 am

ouallada wrote:A terrible tragedy, but let's not get overly vindictive.
I agree, we should not be OVERLY vindictive. It come to light yesterday that the owners of the company have extensive US investments and holdings. Condos, business, etc. yet they reported an operating loss of $756,000 last year. One of their ships rammed a fishing vessel in the Yellow Sea three weeks ago.

The investigation of the chained life rafts has come up with the comment that they had to be chained down because they were so expensive.

The Captain commented that he did not release the life rafts and abandon to them because he was afraid the current might take them out to sea and loose them.... Nothing in the comment about the people.

I'm sure the poor captain had the very best intentions for his passangers and was not getting any kind of a cut of the profits......

Also, I'm sure that the sorrow, anguish, and despair tearing apart the lives of these families--you may be blessed you don't have Korean TV--is only temporary and will be forgotten --- someday.

Besides, the emotional trauma the surviving kids are going through will provide them a valuable growing experience...

So lets not be overly vindictive. Unfortunately drawing and quartering is a lost art.
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Post by ouallada » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:56 am

mystical_tutor wrote:
ouallada wrote:A terrible tragedy, but let's not get overly vindictive.
I agree, we should not be OVERLY vindictive. It come to light yesterday that the owners of the company have extensive US investments and holdings. Condos, business, etc. yet they reported an operating loss of $756,000 last year. One of their ships rammed a fishing vessel in the Yellow Sea three weeks ago.

The investigation of the chained life rafts has come up with the comment that they had to be chained down because they were so expensive.

The Captain commented that he did not release the life rafts and abandon to them because he was afraid the current might take them out to sea and loose them.... Nothing in the comment about the people.

I'm sure the poor captain had the very best intentions for his passangers and was not getting any kind of a cut of the profits......

Also, I'm sure that the sorrow, anguish, and despair tearing apart the lives of these families--you may be blessed you don't have Korean TV--is only temporary and will be forgotten --- someday.

Besides, the emotional trauma the surviving kids are going through will provide them a valuable growing experience...

So lets not be overly vindictive. Unfortunately drawing and quartering is a lost art.
I'm not sure what kind of point you are making. The bit about the company's dealings is a red herring. You don't judge a Chinese by the communist slant and corruption of the Chinese government, do you?

Let's not mistake my stance. The people who made errors here should rightfully be punished and hated, but to impose a sentence which you and a couple of other people here think appropriate is extremely malicious and vindictive. If not going down with the ship is an offence in accordion with maritime law, then it is punished by those same standards. If there were corrupt reasons that resulted in negligence, they are punished as such. Failure of the law to exact appropriate punishment is not an excuse for you to fill in the blanks.

You taught philosophical ethics, no? I'm telling you right now that I, an individual, am doing the same as you did in exercising my right to subjectivity in that I do not believe in free will. The majority of neuroscience stands behind me. If I don't believe in free will, penal and moral culpability for the parties involved are not the direct fault of those parties and born from chance , environment and first-mover godhood (depending on your beliefs). That isn't saying that he isn't to be punished because laws and punishment have places in a society without free will, but that is to say that no culpability can be placed on an individual who isn't free. Don't accept the conclusions of my beliefs? Tell me why the man should be drawn and quartered as a result of yours. Tell me why animal rights extremists aren't allowed to do the same to the kid who pulls the wings off a housefly. Or why the auto-da-fes are not acceptable to you -- after all, the christian inquisitions thought them necessary and it is apparently individual, extremist beliefs which should be held and cherished here?

Subjectivity has a place in the world, but once you sign that social contract, make no mistake, you are subject to laws and their ramifications, which also means that your lamentations on the lost arts of drawing and quartering are indeed out of place in such a discussion.

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Post by random » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:38 am

You don't judge a Chinese by the communist slant and corruption of the Chinese government, do you?

Do you not judge a representative of the communist Chinese Govt this way? This guy has a job/duty and not just some guy on the corner of the road... Try and make logical arguments if you want to prove a philosophical point.

1) When someone accepts a job as "ships captain" they assume some obligations. Such as, if the ship goes down I have certain responsibilities which entail me possibly dying. Similar jobs, policemen, firefighter, soldier. All of these jobs universally entail putting ones life on the line to benefit others. It's not a choice, it's a duty.

2) The above occupations have attached "no win" scenarios where the endgame is you die OR you die trying. This guy and his cohorts signed up of their own free will and were not drafted/compelled into the service. They hopped off the boat and did not fulfill their obligations. People died, by the hundreds, and the captain and company should have died right alongside the passengers. You don't accept this outcome for some reason. For Me/Gary this is the ONLY acceptable outcome. The guilty crew should be dead. How they become dead isn't a big deal imo.

You have some unusual and contradictory beliefs if your above post is sincere.

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Post by mystical_tutor » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:15 pm

With no malace and for the sake of discussion:

"I'm not sure what kind of point you are making. The bit about the company's dealings is a red herring. You don't judge a Chinese by the communist slant and corruption of the Chinese government, do you?"

No, I don't but I would be justified in doing so as it is a rather well know fact that people are influenced by their environment--specially by the ethics and values they grow up in.

The point about the company has a very direct barring on the issue. I thought it would be obvious but I guess I need to explain it. It has been shown in a number of researches that there is such a thing as a corporate mentality. This, in turn, influences the modus operandi (MO) of those associated with and in that corporation. Thus a corrupt corporation has a higher chance of corrupt individuals in it than one that espouses/implements peace and love.

True, my implications, inductively applied to the captain were that he possibly followed in the MO of the corporation are subjective and negative. I own that and will accept it. I think my inductive logic is correct, however and will need need much more scientific proof than what you offer to change my opinion. Based on his observable behavior, and the behavior of his crew, I believe my observations and opinion to be valid. Greed was their motivator and dedication to those they had pledged to serve (you may want to read the pledge Ship Captains are make) was not important enough for them to execute their responsibilities as assumed by the public that put their trust in them.

Your upset with my opinion about their punishment. Society has gone quite soft of late. I might refer you back to the Code of Hammurabi that deals out punishment equal to the results of the crime (and would really put a new consideration in place for frivolous law suits...LOL). I was being a bit sarcastic about the drawing and quartering as it does not serve the same purpose now that it did in the time of Henry III.

Actually I can not think of a punishment appropriate to this crime, except, maybe to take off his hand cuffs and lock him up in the the gym with all the parents of the children that are still on that boat.

I didn't mean to push your (or anyones) button but just to express my feelings. I am NOT sorry they don't meet your values. They express mine and I feel I have a right to do so.

Gary
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Post by mystical_tutor » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:01 am

random wrote:
You don't judge a Chinese by the communist slant and corruption of the Chinese government, do you?

Do you not judge a representative of the communist Chinese Govt this way? This guy has a job/duty and not just some guy on the corner of the road... Try and make logical arguments if you want to prove a philosophical point.

1) When someone accepts a job as "ships captain" they assume some obligations. Such as, if the ship goes down I have certain responsibilities which entail me possibly dying. Similar jobs, policemen, firefighter, soldier. All of these jobs universally entail putting ones life on the line to benefit others. It's not a choice, it's a duty.

2) The above occupations have attached "no win" scenarios where the endgame is you die OR you die trying. This guy and his cohorts signed up of their own free will and were not drafted/compelled into the service. They hopped off the boat and did not fulfill their obligations. People died, by the hundreds, and the captain and company should have died right alongside the passengers. You don't accept this outcome for some reason. For Me/Gary this is the ONLY acceptable outcome. The guilty crew should be dead. How they become dead isn't a big deal imo.

You have some unusual and contradictory beliefs if your above post is sincere.
Well put and thanks for including me....

Gary
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Post by mystical_tutor » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:16 am

The other shoe.

On this mornings news it came out that one crew member, a young lady, a cafeteria worker, refused to take a life vest because not enough had been found for the students. She then helped students get out to the deck, went back to help others. Her body was one of the early recoveries.

A lady recieved a phone call from her husband, a crew member, "I'm going back to help the kids." His body has not been recovered.

There is an online petition asking the government to declare the cafeteria worker a Martyr. In Korea that would entitle the person to be buried in the National Cemetery and the family would receive financial assistance from the government. Probably it will be reclassified to some kind of hero status... we will see.

In any case, it is very heartwarming to know there are some that are willing to give their all for others.
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Post by vegas10 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:50 am

I think I read that the Captain and 9 crew members have been charged with various offenses?

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Post by ouallada » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:38 am

random wrote:
You don't judge a Chinese by the communist slant and corruption of the Chinese government, do you?

Do you not judge a representative of the communist Chinese Govt this way? This guy has a job/duty and not just some guy on the corner of the road... Try and make logical arguments if you want to prove a philosophical point.
I would not judge a Chinese citizen by the actions of his government. Would you judge the ship's crew based on what Gary said that the company did, regardless of whether or not you knew if the company's actions had an effect on the crew and vice versa? That's a pure red herring. Should we also claim that all the staff who work at McDonalds hold no desire towards keeping healthy diets feasible? Walmart employees for the maintenance of small businesses? Read my post if you want to disprove it. I wouldn't doubt my philosophical abilities without being able to read my post and understand it properly.
1) When someone accepts a job as "ships captain" they assume some obligations. Such as, if the ship goes down I have certain responsibilities which entail me possibly dying. Similar jobs, policemen, firefighter, soldier. All of these jobs universally entail putting ones life on the line to benefit others. It's not a choice, it's a duty.
Sure. No one is arguing that there wasn't a staggering amount of negligence. Calling for execution or for the captain to be drawn and quartered is not the same as making the above statement. It is a simple extreme reaction that has no place in the eye of the same form of law and societal obligation that you just evoked.
2) The above occupations have attached "no win" scenarios where the endgame is you die OR you die trying. This guy and his cohorts signed up of their own free will and were not drafted/compelled into the service. They hopped off the boat and did not fulfill their obligations. People died, by the hundreds, and the captain and company should have died right alongside the passengers. You don't accept this outcome for some reason. For Me/Gary this is the ONLY acceptable outcome. The guilty crew should be dead. How they become dead isn't a big deal imo.
I do not accept your intended endgame of execution, because it isn't part of the same maritime law that has convicted him. I have provided examples of how similarly extreme views create similarly extreme and undesired outcomes, at least in the eyes of the social contract and acceptance of law that we have as part of society. If all that matters is YOUR personal opinion, why does mine that free will doesn't exist and hence culpability is expunged not hold? I'm going one step further and would state that I could attack free will better than you can defend it. Should my opinion hold over yours? No, so let's not say that just because you think that death is the desired outcome that it should be. Extreme views are extreme views due to their exclusion of the norm. You should know that. Do you require a list of thinkers and papers that have decried free will and hence penal law?
Last edited by ouallada on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by ouallada » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:44 am

The point about the company has a very direct barring on the issue. I thought it would be obvious but I guess I need to explain it. It has been shown in a number of researches that there is such a thing as a corporate mentality. This, in turn, influences the modus operandi (MO) of those associated with and in that corporation. Thus a corrupt corporation has a higher chance of corrupt individuals in it than one that espouses/implements peace and love.
You could draw that comparison, but you need to prove that the correlation isn't negligible. I work in JPM. We just got hit with huge fines for illegal manipulation of credit indices in Europe. Does it mean that I am more likely to behave in such a fashion, when that decision was made by a bunch of people in a separate line of business I have never dealt with? Think about it.

Look, everyone knows that this is a huge tragedy, which is why I'm glad that you chose to focus on the positives in terms of humanity being shown in the search and rescue efforts. Evoking the desire for the death penalty to be selectively applied is a dangerous precedent if it is simply based on an emotional reaction. If an engineer had screwed up a part which then caused a plane to crash, would we draw and quarter him? what kind of distinction can be made? Let me be clear. I am not defending the crew. I am defending the application of law.

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