Looking for the where abouts of vintage MTG Art

[Worth]

Uhh...

I would be surprised if we lost it during the move, as I've been with WotC for 11 years next month and had no idea we even had the original at the old building.

If it was stolen, I would know about it. And I dont.

[bronty]

Uhh...

I would be surprised if we lost it during the move, as I've been with WotC for 11 years next month and had no idea we even had the original at the old building.

If it was stolen, I would know about it. And I dont.

First of all its awesome to have an 11 year wotc veteran on board on this thread. Welcome. I have to say though, with all possible respect:
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was lost; and
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was stolen.

I know of many stories of stolen art in other hobby circles (outside magic I mean) and often the story is the same - the hobby/art was new, nobody thought it was valuable, people threw it out, didn't care if it was stolen, etc.

I think its entirely possible that it could have been lost OR stolen.

The only other possibility as I see it is that Doug is either mistaken or lying and that possibility isn't even worth talking about; why would he lie.

[bronty]

Any ideas on where the Original Serra Angel is and the Alt Art one by Guay?

A little clarification. Doug told me it was WotC that lost the original when they moved offices.

Lost my ass. Stolen by an employee I'm sure!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion however it is an unfair slam on one heck of a bunch of good people that I know.

I might also point out that if someone did steal it they sure have sat on it for a long time.....

Gary I think you misunderstand me; I respect what you have to say and I am in no way "slamming" a "bunch" of people. All I am saying is that it only takes one bad apple and when there are a bunch of employees it would be really unusual for their NOT to be a bad apple. Or even a good apple that falls to temptation.

The fact is, there are so many stories like this. Art is easy to steal and tends to be valuable, hence it tends to grow legs.

I have spoken to many, many artists from the 60s through 90s and they have related directly to me that it was common for their work to be stolen or "lost" which was code for stolen. I'm not making this up to slag anybody.

You're certainly right that I have no direct knowledge of this particular case so maybe I went to far but I am telling you that when corporate owned art suddenly goes missing it usually isn't accidental.

I personally spoke to the ex head of disney's art achives and even at a huge corp like disney with all the controls they would have (not to mention all the good people working there), the art grew legs. They started with piles of cels from the early cartoons and by the time he left they had very very few from the early works.

Perhaps you're familiar with the marvel comics art thefts? Most all of the artwork for the early marvel comics was originall, you guessed it, stolen from their warehouse.

And so on and on.

[Worth]

Uhh...

I would be surprised if we lost it during the move, as I've been with WotC for 11 years next month and had no idea we even had the original at the old building.

If it was stolen, I would know about it. And I dont.

First of all its awesome to have an 11 year wotc veteran on board on this thread. Welcome. I have to say though, with all possible respect:
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was lost; and
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was stolen.

I know of many stories of stolen art in other hobby circles (outside magic I mean) and often the story is the same - the hobby/art was new, nobody thought it was valuable, people threw it out, didn't care if it was stolen, etc.

I think its entirely possible that it could have been lost OR stolen.

The only other possibility as I see it is that Doug is either mistaken or lying and that possibility isn't even worth talking about; why would he lie.

No offense taken, bronty. I just know enough people who know (internally) that I'm sure I would have heard about it.

That said, if Gary meant the move *two* moves ago, which was roughly 13 years ago or so and before my time, it's possible/likely I would not have heard. I thought he meant our last move ~5 years ago.

I'm sure Doug isn't lying, he has no reason to. Probably someone just passed bad info or something.

[bronty]

Uhh...

I would be surprised if we lost it during the move, as I've been with WotC for 11 years next month and had no idea we even had the original at the old building.

If it was stolen, I would know about it. And I dont.

First of all its awesome to have an 11 year wotc veteran on board on this thread. Welcome. I have to say though, with all possible respect:
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was lost; and
- if you never knew you had it, why would you know it was stolen.

I know of many stories of stolen art in other hobby circles (outside magic I mean) and often the story is the same - the hobby/art was new, nobody thought it was valuable, people threw it out, didn't care if it was stolen, etc.

I think its entirely possible that it could have been lost OR stolen.

The only other possibility as I see it is that Doug is either mistaken or lying and that possibility isn't even worth talking about; why would he lie.

No offense taken, bronty. I just know enough people who know (internally) that I'm sure I would have heard about it.

That said, if Gary meant the move *two* moves ago, which was roughly 13 years ago or so and before my time, it's possible/likely I would not have heard. I thought he meant our last move ~5 years ago.

I'm sure Doug isn't lying, he has no reason to. Probably someone just passed bad info or something.

Thanks Worth, yes I meant no offense whatsoever.

What you are saying makes sense to me in that 13 years ago, I doubt anybody would have cared too too much. 5 years ago, it would have been a much bigger incident, no doubt, as the status of the game and its art grew and solidified.

Much in the way marvel art used to be used to wipe up coffee spills in the 60s (literally) but by now is very valuable and the theft would be taken very seriously.

THanks for your input. Can you share with us any of the pieces that you do know wotc to have in their possession? You must know a lot more about this than some of us; certainly more than me!

thanks
Dan

[mystical_tutor]

Lost my ass. Stolen by an employee I'm sure!

<snip>

Gary I think you misunderstand me; I respect what you have to say and I am in no way "slamming" a "bunch" of people. All I am saying is that it only takes one bad apple and when there are a bunch of employees it would be really unusual for their NOT to be a bad apple. Or even a good apple that falls to temptation.

The fact is, there are so many stories like this.<snip>

Two Points:

1) Yes, you are slaming a “bunch” of good people. Your statement boils down to an equivilent of “if you are an employee you may be a thief”
2) Actually, things do get lost in moves. I can cite the loss of a semi trailor with my entire household goods shipment going from Ft. Hood TX to Ft. Lewis WA. The US Army lost it and a local policeman in a small NV town found it (abandoned behind a “Ranch House” [Alexis would not want me to use the actual English word for what this place was].
To just blurt out that because it is missing and because a thousand other pieces of art are missing there is a thief at WotC is quite unfair to the honest people that are employees. If there is or isn’t a thief working there (past or present) it is irrelevent as your accusation is geneirc and therefore does not separate the guilty and the innocent.

Nothing personal here. I am just pointing out how your comment appears to me.

[bronty]

Lost my ass. Stolen by an employee I'm sure!

<snip>

Gary I think you misunderstand me; I respect what you have to say and I am in no way "slamming" a "bunch" of people. All I am saying is that it only takes one bad apple and when there are a bunch of employees it would be really unusual for their NOT to be a bad apple. Or even a good apple that falls to temptation.

The fact is, there are so many stories like this.<snip>

Two Points:

1) Yes, you are slaming a “bunch” of good people. Your statement boils down to an equivilent of “if you are an employee you may be a thief”
2) Actually, things do get lost in moves. I can cite the loss of a semi trailor with my entire household goods shipment going from Ft. Hood TX to Ft. Lewis WA. The US Army lost it and a local policeman in a small NV town found it (abandoned behind a “Ranch House” [Alexis would not want me to use the actual English word for what this place was].
To just blurt out that because it is missing and because a thousand other pieces of art are missing there is a thief at WotC is quite unfair to the honest people that are employees. If there is or isn’t a thief working there (past or present) it is irrelevent as your accusation is geneirc and therefore does not separate the guilty and the innocent.

Nothing personal here. I am just pointing out how your comment appears to me.

I find it really disappointing that you are choosing to wilfully ignore and/or twist my clear statements. My view that a theft is the more likely explanation is as I made VERY clear a general view on what happens with corporate owned art - backed up with specific examples above - and not connected in any way to wotc and/or the people that work there in particular - as I went to pains to describe.

I didn't come to this forum to get wrapped up in any forum drama (I have better things to do, don't you?) so let's just agree to disagree.

[random]

At some point I intend to post some extremely early MTG images on my newer blog as well as the story about how I acquired the art. This is awhile out though as I intend to write more on my visits with Clive Barker and elaborate on some later TSR history (which is essentially early WOTC history and relevant to this thread). Some non work safe images and language...
Maybe I'll have extensive MTG info in the next few weeks. This might only interest a few of you.
http://fantasyartcollecting.blogspot.com/

Hasta

[dragsamou]

[Alexis would not want me to use the actual English word for what this place was].

Hi Gary
Please do, I'm curious now

[notsofasteddie]

Alexis,

For your eyes only!!

http://mustangranchbrothel.com

[dragsamou]

Alexis,

For your eyes only!!

http://mustangranchbrothel.com

I see a Rodeo place

[mystical_tutor]

Alexis,
For your eyes only!!
http://mustangranchbrothel.com

I see a Rodeo place

Thats it!!! Ride em, Cowboy.....

Navada is the only state in the US where Prostitution is legal and the places are called Ranches instead of what they are called in the states where they are not legal--Whore houses...

[AbsolutAlphas]

Does anyone know who owns the art for any of these?

Blacker Lotus (Rush)
Lotus Bloom (Rush)
Lotus Petal (Lee)
Lotus Vale (Avon)

If anyone has any info, PM me or shoot me an email at AbsolutAlphas@gmail.com.

Thanks lovers,
Jake

[AbsolutAlphas]

bump