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magic-belgium
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Post by magic-belgium » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:49 am

@Brian : nice !

ouallada
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Post by ouallada » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:33 pm

random wrote:
are they one of a kind?


Extremely unlikely. The better question is how many made it out of WOTC/Carta Mundi.

If they print these up they're going to produce quite a few sheets. It's not cost effective to just make one or some low # unless you're specifically making a "rarity" (like the Garfield announcement cards or something like a rare prize card).
The cost of printing 1 sheet of these things or 50-100 sheets requires the same press time and set-up time and everything else. The cost of the paper is the least issue if you print something not in bulk.
There's absolutely 0 reason to only print a few of these cause WOTC could easily say they want more examples of something and then the printer/s have to do more work- press crews don't like to do more work... so you make more than you need by a good margin and when it's stuff like "examples" you print up extras versus some limited supply.
There's absolutely 0 reason WOTC would make "test prints" a manufactured rarity as they're never intended to go into booster packs.
The question really is how many people were going to make this decision about the new look of the cards and I'd imagine nearly everybody at WOTC was asked for input.

I think it's extremely wishful thinking that this type of thing could be a "one-of" item or even ultra rare. It could very well be that, for now, in the hands of "collectors" but if they command $$$ I'd imagine more would turn up. Possibly a lot more. This is logical imo-
This is true, to an extent. It obviously happened for the exodus foils because there were multiple versions of each foil card, and those existed, and leaked to the public in far greater quantities than most people realise. While it doesn't cost much more to print multiples, that isn't the crux of the rarity question. The crux there, is of course, the amounts of these that are kept around after the rest of these test prints are destroyed. In that regard, some very reputable sources have actually come forth to state that all test prints from Destiny down are actually extreme in their rarity.

It does Wizards no good to produce large amounts and leave them intact when they have already been burnt to an extent by summer magic. It simply reflects badly on a company to have any kind of unintentional product leak to the public.

@Implode:

These are created by the normal printing process, except they have white backs.

implode
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Post by implode » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:12 pm

ouallada wrote:
random wrote:
are they one of a kind?


Extremely unlikely. The better question is how many made it out of WOTC/Carta Mundi.

If they print these up they're going to produce quite a few sheets. It's not cost effective to just make one or some low # unless you're specifically making a "rarity" (like the Garfield announcement cards or something like a rare prize card).
The cost of printing 1 sheet of these things or 50-100 sheets requires the same press time and set-up time and everything else. The cost of the paper is the least issue if you print something not in bulk.
There's absolutely 0 reason to only print a few of these cause WOTC could easily say they want more examples of something and then the printer/s have to do more work- press crews don't like to do more work... so you make more than you need by a good margin and when it's stuff like "examples" you print up extras versus some limited supply.
There's absolutely 0 reason WOTC would make "test prints" a manufactured rarity as they're never intended to go into booster packs.
The question really is how many people were going to make this decision about the new look of the cards and I'd imagine nearly everybody at WOTC was asked for input.

I think it's extremely wishful thinking that this type of thing could be a "one-of" item or even ultra rare. It could very well be that, for now, in the hands of "collectors" but if they command $$$ I'd imagine more would turn up. Possibly a lot more. This is logical imo-
This is true, to an extent. It obviously happened for the exodus foils because there were multiple versions of each foil card, and those existed, and leaked to the public in far greater quantities than most people realise. While it doesn't cost much more to print multiples, that isn't the crux of the rarity question. The crux there, is of course, the amounts of these that are kept around after the rest of these test prints are destroyed. In that regard, some very reputable sources have actually come forth to state that all test prints from Destiny down are actually extreme in their rarity.

It does Wizards no good to produce large amounts and leave them intact when they have already been burnt to an extent by summer magic. It simply reflects badly on a company to have any kind of unintentional product leak to the public.

@Implode:

These are created by the normal printing process, except they have white backs.
So some chance exists that some people who have them might mistake them for artist proofs...

ouallada
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Post by ouallada » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:58 pm

Extremely low as they look markedly different, plus anyone who has them on the open market will have bought them and would know what they have on their hands.

random
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Post by random » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm

The crux there, is of course, the amounts of these that are kept around after the rest of these test prints are destroyed.
Who destroys them and why destroy them?

Unless there's an overload of product and it needs to be dealt with -destroyed as opposed to storage fees- because it cannot be sold to the public for whatever reasons destroying product makes sense. Fallen Empires/Summer MTG is a good example of this problem. They either cost $$ continuously or you get rid of the problem for a one time fee. Destroying these is/was a logical solution to a real problem.

Because test/prototype types of things aren't mass produced they don't need to be dealt with asides boxing them up and sticking them somewhere-

Why destroy them? "So they don't get into the hands of people and damage the brand somehow." -Not a serious argument.
"so competition doesn't get ahold of it." - The only possible reason I can think of.
Considering most everything leaks out of WOTC anyways and they're an arrogant company (similar to how TSR was) this is unlikely.

There's 0 upside to destroy prototypes. What + results derive from it? WOTC isn't a poorly managed company- It's only my opinion they don't "destroy" stuff unless it's a financial burden. If these already "leaked" out how much of it went to the kids and friends of the people who leaked it. If it all gets collected (and destroyed) how is some of it "out there"?
If someone gave you a pile of MTG cards and told you to "get rid of them" would you go and destroy them? Is it someones job there at WOTC to be the card shredder guy?? Maybe so.
To be fair, whenever I see something like this pop up for sale the seller always tells us how "rare" the item is and only one-of or very few survived the trip from WOTC or Carta Mundi or wherever they came from and the rest were policed up and destroyed by those card shredder guys:)

Edit: These are obviously "rare" and by "rare" standards super duper rare. The REAL crux of the matter is how "rare" they really are and how much will continue to leak out when people realize how much $$ they can get for them... WOTC has mass layoffs pretty often.

ouallada
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Post by ouallada » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:50 am

You'd have to direct the question to someone from WOTC if you want a serious answer as to who destroys them. The "why" interests me far more. I think we can both agree that quality control is an integral part of any company's image, which is why you don't see WOTC being openly proud that albino cards, miscuts, crimps etc exist, because if said quality control had worked perfectly, none of that would have happened.

You don't see why destroying them yields a positive ev? Let's look at the unglued test prints, which were printed in 2001 and tested aesthetics for 8th edition frames, which was released in 2003. Can you be intellectually honest and tell me that there is ANY positive ev to wotc to keep test prints around, knowing that they have value (summer magic is a testament to this) to the public and thus might be leaked, when destroying all save a minute number to be kept internally is quick and painless? If test prints from unglued were leaked between 2001 and 2003, you would have had a multitude of naysayers on the new frame, which actively damages the brand. Just think of how many people quit around Mirrodin due to the change in borders, and anything along those lines happening here would be made worse by the fact that these frames did not come to fruition. Even if the reaction were positive, you would ruin the goodwill a planned announcement would generate. When a new set is nearing release, why on earth do you think WOTC has done all it has to cut unofficial spoilers to a minimum? So that they can control the release of information and maximise goodwill.

So, yes, there are very obvious reasons why prototypes are not leaked. There really isn't any arguing that. That is not even considering other implications, such as leaking out new foiling methods (5d), the existence of foiling at all (exodus), a poor image of quality control (textless saga in japanese UD) and so on.

So, why do you not think leaving non-circulated items around is a potential issue or even a positive thing for wotc, especially as the alternative is near costless and prevents ANY issues from happening if their inadvertent release happens?

All that added to the voices we have heard from people in the know about these quantities, none of which substantiate what you have said -- nay, conjectured. Some of which actually come close from the sources of these kind of stuff.

Keevy Bogsbury
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Post by Keevy Bogsbury » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:02 am

random wrote:Why destroy them? "So they don't get into the hands of people and damage the brand somehow." -Not a serious argument.
This is actually a very serious argument. Brand control is everything. It's got nothing to do with storage costs and everything to do with maintaining tight control over their product.

random wrote:There's 0 upside to destroy prototypes. What + results derive from it?
Upside: brand control. There is zero reason to take the unnecessary risk of not destroying such test products.
random wrote:Is it someones job there at WOTC to be the card shredder guy??
As someone very familiar with corporate records management, I can say that this is in fact quite likely. Either that, or the responsibility is contracted out to a third party. Product destruction is BIG business. Companies that make or deal with products of all shapes and sizes spend megabucks every year simply destroying their own creations, whether those are internal test products, samples, records, documents, whatever... you name it. Most people have no idea how much money is spent on simply destroying stuff that companies do not want leaked. One of the major reasons is brand control. This is in no way an unserious argument.

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thulnanth
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Post by thulnanth » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:30 pm

Hey All,

Yeah, just my $.02 worth...

I work in a print shop and from time to time we have printed "limited edition" prints of artwork for various clients. I can say that destroying the errors/extras/testprints was a HIGH priority. This stuff doesn't just walk out - everyone I work with won't risk their job for something like that (and you will get fired, no questions asked). They have similar measures in place for coupons, bank checks, etc. Destroying that stuff is very much an important part of the process.

Take it easy,
Jared
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:36 pm

Give me a break.

Surely if you owned a company that wanted to maintain an image of quality the last thing in the world you would want people to find in that product would be screwed up items.

I mean, Blue Hurricanes! How stupid does that look? The Spanish Serra was bad enough along with all the "standard" mistakes--now add to those all the screwed up cuts/crimps/inking that HAVE BEEN DESTROIED and people would would pick a different game to buy.

The fact that people like to collect these as oddities is fine--no problem here but stop and think!

If all the mistakes ever made had gotten packaged and sold those things wouldn't be near as odd or unique or valuable (it is like the sham going on now where an off center card is called a rare misprint...sigh).

Players don't think like collectors. I have seen players get quite upset that there was a fillercard in their booster instead of an uncommon. On an occasion where I showed some of my errors to a group of players you should have seen the smerks and heard the groans. Some of them commented that they would hate to get "one of those" in a booster draft.

Now my question. Why not destroy them?

Gary
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Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

hammr7
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Post by hammr7 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:09 pm

When I was in the print business, we expected to scrap anywhere from 3% to 7% of a print run for set-up and for quality defects. This was important because we had to plan on initiating more product than ordered so that we had enough "good" product at the end.

Most of our contracts, which were pretty standard, allowed us to sell as much as 4% to 5% more product than ordered in case we had an exceptionally good run.

Most of our contracts demanded that all product, including scrapped materials, had to be destroyed unless it was shipped as first quality product to the original purchaser.

We normally quoted production in square feet or square yards.

A few larger customers might allow us to sell second quality goods (for MTG cards, think of items like alt. 4th), but even then we usually had to ship the goods off-shore, and guarantee against re-importation.

Royal Ass.
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Post by Royal Ass. » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:57 am

Nothing insane, but my first Summer card :)

Image
Last edited by Royal Ass. on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ci sono cose che succedono ai vivi non ai morti.

vegas10
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Post by vegas10 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:00 am

Nice find summer beb, looks great too

Royal Ass.
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Post by Royal Ass. » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:05 am

I got this about a year ago or so, but never posted it.

Image
Ci sono cose che succedono ai vivi non ai morti.

johnstown713
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Post by johnstown713 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:50 pm

If you ever want to part with that TW drawing I'd love to be the first to know :-D

implode
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Post by implode » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Anyone ever sees a Fledgling Dragon test print for sale or happens to acquire one please let me know...or if you suspect you might in the future pm me and I will provide you my email address. I'm dedicated to personalizing my collecting as much as possible.

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